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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Amador County, Calif
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    3,191

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Well Jimmy, I see you had the same luck I did. lol....

    Peter, most of these keepers don't need Paramount, they are doing far better than Paramount would be willing to pay, the keepers that would take that job are the ones you wouldn't want.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
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    1,547

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Me? A negative bias against big business? Sorry you've got the wrong guy. Paramount can do what they wish, doesn't bother me in the least. Of the list of things that concern me, it doesn't even crack the top 50. If there is one thing I have learned over my 40+ years of commercial bee hive management
    Please accept my apology. I based my statement on insufficient information and I regret making it.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    I'm not a commercial beekeeper.
    And having just witnessed the reactions to PLB's comment - perhaps I should keep my mouth shut.

    BUT ... I can see at least once scenario where it could make sense for an experienced, successful beekeeper to sell to an outfit like Paramount. Such a beekeeper looking ahead to retirement - perhaps without any children active in the business - is faced with what to do with his operation when he chooses to retire.

    There is relatively little property assets in a bee business other than the hives - value is pretty much in the hives and resulting cash flow. Getting maximum value from breaking up a beekeeping business is likely to be difficult.

    Selling the business as an ongoing operation - at a premium price - along with a contract to manage the business for a fixed period of time can be a way to maximize the recovery of cash for the beekeeper's retirement.

    There are a variety of ways that both sides can benefit from such an arrangement, including contractually specified performance payments in future years.


    Fire away!

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 07-18-2014 at 09:06 AM. Reason: typo
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  4. #44
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    Jan 2010
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    Ithaca, NY USA
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    1,547

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Peter, most of these keepers don't need Paramount, they are doing far better than Paramount would be willing to pay, the keepers that would take that job are the ones you wouldn't want.
    That is probably true, yet I can understand why some beekeepers might trade the vagaries of the market for a steady job. I did that 15 years ago, sold my bees and went to work for a University. There are pros and cons.

    On the other hand, what about the guys that are lining up for ELAP payments? Maybe they should consider working for Paramount instead of siphoning off taxpayer's money to buy more bees to lose.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Maricopa, Ariz, USA
    Posts
    90

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    If there is one thing I have learned over my 40+ years of commercial bee hive management is that one of the biggest challenges that you will face is keeping a qualified work force.
    It is nearly impossible to 'outpay' a "really qualified" mans desire to do it on his own. Any commercial beeman will echo Jim's statement.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Solano, California, USA
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    1,377

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    [QUOTEI...It is quite clear that California could support the one million colonies needed, under normal circumstances...... but only when the winter rains are sufficient.[/QUOTE]

    My response is posted between these quotes " " as I am left speechless by the insurmountable absurdity of the above statement.

    Are you serious or just plain ignorant of what the word "Normal" is in regards to rainfall in the Golden State and therefore the viability of doing what you say is "possible"? If the university definition of "normal" is equal to "average" then you are way off base by a factor of 50% minimally.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
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    3,191

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    I'm not a commercial beekeeper.
    There is relatively little property assets in a bee business other than the hives - value is pretty much in the hives and resulting cash flow.
    Fire away!
    RS nice post. But I have a few things to add, from a commercial keepers stand point. First, 75% of our assets are in property, we buy on the out skirts of towns use them as a bee locations, then when to the likes of WalMart, schools & delvelopers comes calling they need to get those pesky bees out of the way, all of these scenerio have happen.

    I have a few good beekeeping friends that have been putting in almonds for the past few years now, so there are many keepers doing just this. or likes of this.

    Most of these commercial guys are netting $100+ per hive and most of us run between 3-6000 hives.

    Hope this sheds some light.

    Again, nice post RS with good humor.
    Last edited by Keith Jarrett; 07-18-2014 at 09:29 AM.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,337

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    It sounds like KJ may be a successful real estate speculator as well as a successful beekeeper.

    I submit that those two activities can easily separated when one wishes. As Keith has noted, he sold the 'bee yard' real estate, but is still in the beekeeping business.

    Selling strictly beekeeping assets is a different proposition entirely. Developers and Walmart have no use for honey houses beyond scrap value.
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Hahira Ga.
    Posts
    25

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Like to see what there spraying will be like with there own bees.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
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    1,547

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Are you serious or just plain ignorant of what the word "Normal" is in regards to rainfall in the Golden State and therefore the viability of doing what you say is "possible"?
    I lived in California for 30 years, did beekeeping there for 15. California was one of the best states for bees prior to the drought. Before the astronomical increase in almond acreage, pollination was done by California bees.

    Of course rainfall has always varied from region to region and from year to year. From an average of 11 inches annually in So Cal to 300 inches around Crescent City. Formerly it was much wetter, and it could return to that state.

    Coastal California has ranked as one of the best beekeeping regions in the world. This has changed mainly due to overpopulation, and water shortfalls. Given a much smaller population or much wetter winters, it might be different. Neither is under our control, it seems.
    Last edited by peterloringborst; 07-18-2014 at 11:22 AM. Reason: clarity

  11. #51
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    Jan 2010
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    Ithaca, NY USA
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    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    I'm not a commercial beekeeper. And having just witnessed the reactions to PLB's comment - perhaps I should keep my mouth shut.
    If I have learned nothing else from posting online, I have learned this: the shorter the post, the more likely it is to be an oversimplification and the more likely to be misinterpreted. On the other hand, nobody is right all of the time. The only way to be right even occasionally is to pay attention to what you see and what others see, and what they say. My main goal getting into the fray is to learn. Sometimes I learn more from making a disagreeable statement than from saying "you guys are right on." As my old friend Allen Dick used to say (probably still does):

    If everybody is agreeing, nobody is thinking.
    (to which I would only add, the opposite is not true. If everybody is disagreeing, that's no proof that thinking is taking place)
    Last edited by peterloringborst; 07-18-2014 at 12:00 PM. Reason: expanded

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Maricopa, Ariz, USA
    Posts
    90

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    It could work …. right people, correct plan. I know for a fact there are 'major players' that will sell and accept the 'management' positions under certain conditions. I question the potential savings vs exposure being a sound management decision for them but what do I know…..a little fart like me. The timing baffles me a bit……questions with water issues, availability of hives, contracts already sent out for next year, etc. It will be interesting.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
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    6,645

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    It's not out of the question that billionaires are making business decisions based on information that others (us) don't have.
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    6,221

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    "The people who usually succeed are the ones who are told they cant..." how is that for quoting myself lol, and ya, I was told I couldn't make this honey business work by more than a handfull of people all over the spectrum

    the question is, and the question that keeps spinning around is, will a board room table give enough to allow the venture to succeed ?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    moravia,ny
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    1,223

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    If they do have thier own bees I'm sure it will be a good tax write off for them. lol

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Panama City, Florida, USA
    Posts
    591

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Digman View Post
    It's not out of the question that billionaires are making business decisions based on information that others (us) don't have.
    Yep, for all we know they may be buying up all the hives after hearing that Monsanto was going to partner up with the big beekeepers in the implementation of their new GMO Bees.....





    I guess for accuracy sake, I better disclaim that the above is pure fiction....... you know how rumors get started.....

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    906

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    I drove the the Wasco >> Paso road today (Hwy 46), this includes multiple miles of Paramount owned Pistachio and and Almond orchards centered on their processor at Lost Hills. There is some signficant turn-over going on in Almonds in that stretch -- over mature trees going out, and new (water thrifty) orchards going in. As well as the last of the Walnuts getting chipped. The new Almond acreage I saw was on the eastside near 99 -- and is not Paramount land.

    Paramount may have decided to control the cost of pollination by under-running their $155 contracts with in-house labor. I would guess that decision was several years in the development and testing, and if it is going public, it is because it anticipates the fall, post-harvest irrigation won't happen on irrigation delivery dependent older orchards, and thus the 2015 pollination demand might be weak (e.g. >10% of the trees might be pulled from production).

    This is a demand squeeze - 2014 was actually weak, and Paramount anticipates 2015 to be worse. They likely feel they can capture enough of the supply to provide them pricing power on their orchards. Paramount is currently advertising for a deputy Strategy Manager for their Lost Hills operation with responsibilities for M & A. They likely feel their is going to be some consolidation, and the dry conditions are going to give them some cheap take-over deals.

    The pollination contracts are lump cash out --- and the accounts may like amortizing that same cost over 12 months of salary. Even if the dollar cost was the same, having 12 months to spread the cost out is a great deal for a commodity marketer -- you don't have to have a cash reserve, but can pay out of sales-- so the cost of funds is negligible. If you are marginal, and anticipate the 2015 price to trend down based on grubbed out orchards, then a guarantee for the hard times might be attractive.

    Paramount might be anticipating a wave of Ukrainian refugees -- lots of great beekeepers, and not enough capital to start their own operations.

    Because Paramount "owns" the southern San Joaquin water bank (a paper storage fiction), they have access to a massive allotment of pumpable water. The are water king pins at this point, and can decide which trees live and which ones die.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    6,221

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jbeshearse View Post

    I guess for accuracy sake, I better disclaim that the above is pure fiction....... you know how rumors get started.....
    you would be surprised how often I get asked about GM bees... people think Monsanto has GM bees...
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Salem, Oregon
    Posts
    963

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Paramount might be anticipating a wave of Ukrainian refugees -- lots of great beekeepers,........
    Are you sure about that?
    I have exactly ONE hive more than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond question.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Solano, California, USA
    Posts
    1,377

    Default Re: Paramount Farms buying out beekeepers?

    Harry, As a mod you ought to know that Barry is not to hyped when the Red Flag topic comes up. Every time it shows the thread gets axed sooner or later. One could be like a politician on the subject and spin it with a little sky blue and white tinges on the corners of the red flag but the bottom line is the "same thing" as you have noted.

    Between multinationals attempting to control pollination prices and another wave of mindless hordes who fail to respect our culture getting a free pass to cross our borders I would say we are about to have the most productive bee tree in the history of the US cut from beneath our feet as we speak.

    If both Stewart( as in Resnick) and Barry (as in the POTUS) get their way and are successful I'm going to venture that our current dealings with varroa and CCD will shortly become listed as "the good ol days. "!!!!!!! HELP!!!!

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