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  1. #241
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Mike posts comments like this ....

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    That's plain nonsense Daniel, born of a poor understanding of natural selection. *Its so wrong I don't know what to say.
    ... and then wonders why his thoughts are not being graciously received.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  2. #242
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    What ever you get from breeding the selected bees will be watered down so fast it is unlikely the third generation will exhibit must of the original parents behavior.
    As long as you you control the ingredients (input) you are controlling the product.

    The fact of open mating makes things more difficult. And yes, if you stop breeding your stock soon returns to the amibient recipe.

    But you don't stop, rather the opposite: you select the ingredients you want repeatedly, each time getting a little closer to what you want, each time compounding the effect. And you take steps to maximise the input of only your ingredients, and minimise the input of unwanted ingredients. Husbandry is entirely about taking control of the selection process and keeping it.

    If this didn't work, we wouldn't have any of our vegetable or domestic animal species. There wouldn't be any bees gentler than any other.

    I have to say: I'm astounded at the resistance that is being put up here to the simplest, and single most important fact of animal husbandry.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  3. #243
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    And if the bees need treatment, ie varroa, they are not selected.... RIght?
    That's right. The next generation is made from bees that do not need treatments - for ie varroa.

    It isn't quite that easy (though it is that easy where you have resistant ferals who've done the work for you) but yes that's the principle.

    Roughly speaking those bees that have what is needed to thrive despite varroa make more bees like themselves. (The traits are inherited)

    Its the same principle for any other traits you choose, including broad good health and vitality, as signalled by good productivity.

    Beekeepers, like other husbandrymen worldwide, tend to make increase from the best. You don't go using the genetics [altered for clarification] from your worst hives unless you're a complete idiot.

    Anyone trying to argue that is wrongheaded is either being mischievious, or has never received an education in the most basic principles of husbandry, or has some part of their logic circuits misfiring. Or any combination of those three.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 07-23-2014 at 12:25 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  4. #244
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    May 2009
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post

    Anyone trying to argue that is wrongheaded is either being mischievious, or has never received an education in the most basic principles of husbandry, or some part of their logic circuits misfiring. Or any combination of those three.

    Mike (UK)
    Is it "Wrongheaded" for a husbandryman to treat for parasites. If my flock of sheep has worms, should I not drench them.... or should I let them die and select from the emaciated survivors?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  5. #245
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Beekeepers, like other husbandrymen worldwide, tend to make increase from the best. You don't go splitting your worst hives unless you're a complete idiot.
    Careful tossing around the "complete idiot" term, Mike!

    From Michael Palmer, a successful beekeeper by almost any measure ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    The whole point is to use the weak colonies for making your nucs. All you need is a frame of brood and bees...maybe a frame and a half.

    (click the blue arrow in the quote box to read Mr Palmer's original post/thread)




    ... anyone else think that Mike's insults backfire? ...
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  6. #246
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    Jun 2011
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    brownwood, TX, USA
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    862

    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    One thing for sure, Mike Bispham, has lots of spare time, and he really likes to read his posts. Not that he bothers me, and I have to grudgingly admire his tenacity. I don't know enough about bio science to make a judgement on his intellectual abilities.

  7. #247
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Is it "Wrongheaded" for a husbandryman to treat for parasites. If my flock of sheep has worms, should I not drench them.... or should I let them die and select from the emaciated survivors?
    It would be wrongheaded of you to select rams and breeding ewes at random. It would be more wrongheaded of you to select the weakest for that purpose.

    That's the comparison here.

    If some of your ewes show natural resistance to parasites, while being equal in all other respects to others, it would be sensible to favour them as prospective mothers for that reason.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  8. #248
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    Jan 2009
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    Clifford Township, PA
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Careful tossing around the "complete idiot" term, Mike!

    From Michael Palmer, a successful beekeeper by almost any measure ...

    "The whole point is to use the weak colonies for making your nucs. All you need is a frame of brood and bees...maybe a frame and a half. ":
    Perhaps a minor point in this discussion, but his idea of using weak hives to make nucs is to use the resources of those hives, not the genetics. A mated queen from good stock gets introduced to the nuc. Using the genetics of the weak hive's queen would not be the best choice.

    Wayne

  9. #249
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    I agree with you, Wayne, but that wasn't what Mike Bispham said. He used the term 'splits' and that is exactly what Michael Palmer is doing. Splits can take a variety of forms, but Mike B branded all splits from weak hives as "complete idiocy".
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  10. #250
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    I agree with you, Wayne, but that wasn't what Mike Bispham said. He used the term 'splits' and that is exactly what Michael Palmer is doing. Splits can take a variety of forms, but Mike B branded all splits from weak hives as "complete idiocy".
    I could have made that clearer - I guess I'd assumed those here would be able to read my meaning easily. After all, to take it the other way would be in complete opposition to everything I've been saying, wouldn't it? But thanks for prompting Wayne to clarify nicely, even though you only did it to try to stir up trouble.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  11. #251
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Beekeepers, like other husbandrymen worldwide, tend to make increase from the best. You don't go using the genetics [altered for clarification] from your worst hives unless you're a complete idiot.

    Anyone trying to argue that is wrongheaded is either being mischievious, or has never received an education in the most basic principles of husbandry, or has some part of their logic circuits misfiring. Or any combination of those three.

    Mike (UK)
    Or they are sly like a fox and split their weak/under productive colonies and grow queens from the most desirable colonies to propogate the genetic line one wants by using the line one doesn't want in its most useful way.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  12. #252
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Or they are sly like a fox and split their weak/under productive colonies and grow queens from the most desirable colonies to propogate the genetic line one wants by using the line one doesn't want in its most useful way.
    Quite.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  13. #253
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Quite.

    Mike (UK)
    one of your best posts mike!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #254
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    But thanks for prompting Wayne to clarify nicely, even though you only did it to try to stir up trouble.
    Here's the point, Mike. I used your term of "complete idiot" to point out that you were wrong. Why is it that you used the term "complete idiot" in the first place? Were you trying to "stir up trouble"?

    Correct/proper/suitable beekeeping takes a variety of forms - based on local conditions, yet you seem think that your regular use of insults in posts somehow buttresses your point.


    It doesn't.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  15. #255
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    one of your best posts mike!
    Now that is just plain mean. Funny, but mean.

    Mike is valiantly fighting to get his points across, even if I find them hard to read. But, I have to give him credit for sticking to his guns as we say on this side of the Atlantic, even if I find myself having trouble following or even reading his Posts.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  16. #256
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    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
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    1,563

    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Beekeepers, like other husbandrymen worldwide, tend to make increase from the best. You don't go using the genetics [altered for clarification] from your worst hives unless you're a complete idiot.
    That isn't what they are doing . They use properly raised queens to make the splits, only the bees and brood to form the hive comes from the duds. And why were they duds? Seldom is genetics involved, maybe they had an old queen or just didn't build up fast enough to be of any use as honey producers

    The term genetics as used here, reveals a complete misunderstanding of the term. Bee breeding is not perfected, it does not resemble animal breeding in any way, and those who speak the most about it tend to be either 1) selling something, or 2) don't have a clue.

  17. #257
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Now that is just plain mean. Funny, but mean.
    it was meant tongue in cheek mark, that's why the smiley. mike and i have had cordial back and forths, i hope he took it in the spirit intended, but if not, well, excuuuuuuuuse me!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #258
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    You are old enough to know about "Excuuuuuuuse me!"? I din't know that.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  19. #259
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    You are old enough to know about "Excuuuuuuuse me!"? I din't know that.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #260
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hampstead, NC USA
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    609

    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by lazy shooter View Post
    I don't know enough about bio science to make a judgement on his intellectual abilities.
    How do you know until you try?
    Give it a shot. Make a judgement.

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