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  1. #201
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    A trait is not necessarily a genetic trait. Environment is the cause of far more traits then genetics. This si why in breeding and specifically genetic breeding removal or limiting environmental influence is critical.
    Why remove the environment they are supposed to live in? Why, when beekeeping is so regional, that what applies in the North, doesn't necessarily apply in the South (and vice versa)?
    Can you alter location without an alteration in genetic makeup? Please, I don't pretend to know the answers....far from it. But I don't understand how genetics can not be influenced by the environment, whether it be bees, bears, fish or humans.
    Last edited by CajunBee; 07-21-2014 at 04:14 PM.

  2. #202
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    But not enough to be a vegetarian.
    Vegetarians are good. Tasting.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  3. #203
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Beeman View Post
    Ok.. point taken sqkcrk. But you get the jist.
    HE..... is about 55 or so. lol
    He said he will let me know when he retires from his current job. He is sending me a round trip ticket to see his operation. lol
    May I ask how long you have been a beekeeper? Did you start prior to the problems with varroa? If no did you start with knowledge about varroa? If yes did you go into beekeeping intending to be a treatment free beekeeper? If yes what bees did you start your operation with?
    How did you get the name, "Mr. Beeman"?
    I'm not poking sticks I am really interested.
    Thanks

  4. #204
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Vegetarians are good. Tasting.
    Even when they are forced to eat meat.

    I have a smattering of Buddha in me too. I was once fat. So is 85% of the country.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  5. #205
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    ... By the way, the Buddha smattered me too. But not enough to be a vegetarian.
    You're in luck, then. There are many schools of thought among Buddhists about eating meat, and throughout history and throughout the world today, those varied ideas still exist and a great many Buddhists eat meat. Buddha did set down some specific guidelines about eating meat and they were directed at his monks, not necessarily at the lay folk.

    The early monks wandered the countryside and relied on alms for their sustenance They were instructed "to eat like the bees," taking a bit from this flower, a bit from the next, etc. [Note the reference to bees......] If they were offered a dish containing meat, they were instructed to accept it. They could not, however, accept meat from an animal that was killed specifically for them as that would make them directly responsible for the death of a sentient being.

    I'm a vegetarian enough to suit me, but not Buddhist enough to call myself a Buddhist. But I'm still evolving. Maybe next lifetime.

    Wayne , A vegetarian with good taste.

    [Did you note the reference to bees?]

  6. #206
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    But I don't understand how genetics can not be influenced by the environment, whether it be bees, bears, fish or humans.
    The genes are not influenced by the environment. You can't produce a breed of fat dogs by over-feeding them. The pups will be born with the normal genes. Selection works on traits that are already there or ones that appear via mutation. Dog breeding is a matter of selecting offspring that appear to have the characteristics you are looking for, say fatness. It's not a matter of changing the genes through the environment, that won't work (caveat: there are notable examples of epigenetic effects but these are not dramatic nor relevant to this example).

    Bees become acclimated to an environment not by the influence of environment on the genes, but by the change in population makeup over time. Over time, families that are better suited will proliferate and the less well suited will die out. It appears to our eyes that the bees are adapting but this is a matter of perspective. Most died because they couldn't adapt. Some survived through some trait, such as early build up, or thrift, and propagated that trait. Animals can't adapt because they can't know beforehand what traits would increase their survival, and they can't change their own traits.

    Humans, on the other hand, can predict their own needs and can change their techniques based upon real time feedback. That's called "learning." Intelligence and the ability to learn have evolved because they enable us to overcome our genetic limitations. This is the amazing thing about people: even though we are created by nature, and ultimately restrained by nature, our intelligence and creativity has enabled us to do far more than any other species. Say what you want about how people have harmed the earth, we have also built marvelous things with its resources.

    As we all know, Darwin stated that evolution results from survival of the fittest individual, the fittest having been determined by competition. There is much truth in this concept, but at the same time, emphasis on the individual is an unwarranted limitation. There is also competition between products of an individual, between populations, and between species, and all these competitions may lead to the selection of survivors.

    Let me start by asking two questions. First, what is the definition of a population, and second, what are the characteristics of a population that may lead to its survival in a competition. A population is different from a collection of individuals. Evidence of this difference is the existence of the many means of communication. In humans, it is language; in birds, its existence may be indicated by flight patterns and in insects, by anthills or beehives. Populations are not merely groups of individuals. The fittest population is characterized by diversity of its members and by collaboration between them. The strong population will have leaders and followers. Human populations may have engineers, inventors, soldiers, and farmers, who all are not necessarily the fittest individuals.

    In conclusion, what holds for pharmacogenetics will also stand for ecogenetics and inborn resistance to infectious disease. The variation that we see between individuals is biologically most important because it conveys genetic divergence to populations.

    Werner Kalow, 2001. Pharmacogenetics in Perspective
    Last edited by peterloringborst; 07-21-2014 at 09:52 PM. Reason: expanded

  7. #207
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    There are many schools of thought among Buddhists
    What school did the Buddha belong to? Whose precepts did he follow? None; no one's. That's how I see it: No Buddha; No not Buddha.

  8. #208
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    A trait is not necessarily a genetic trait.
    Oh yes it is. That's what 'trait' means in the contexts of discussions of husbandry or adaptation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Environment is the cause of far more traits then genetics. This si why in breeding and specifically genetic breeding removal or limiting environmental influence is critical.
    You're right about that part. You work to level the playing field so that those that flourish must be doing so as a result of their (innate, genetic) traits. Only then can you pick out the best effectively. An important part of husbandry is learning how to distingish genetic features ('Nature') from environmental features ('Nurture').

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    99.9% is not an actual but I woudl have to look up. it is founded on actual successful breeding programs. I have not been able to locate the actual article on the specific program I have in mind.
    I'd need a reference before I even thought about it, and then I'd need an explanation of why its entirely inconsistent with the hundereds of testimonies given here and on other bee forrums, with my own experience, and with the experience of the many professional breeders I've heard about. Its a figure absurdly out of whack with everything I've learned over the last 10 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    I can say it has to do with the genetic breeding of hackle chickens.
    Ahh! Its JW Chestnut's stuff! Forget it. It irrelevant, anecdotal, unscientific, commercially slanted nonsense written by someone trying to protect his business by making it sound difficult. 50 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    You say natural selection is a health seeking mechanism. I disagree I say it is is survival seeking mechanism.
    Poor health and survival (and reproduction) correlate strongly. That should be obvious to anybody. You're trying to argue black is white here Daniel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    As for reports of people keeping bees without care. I agree I have seen some of them. they are the exception at best and their report results are questionable at the least. I see far more frequently that reports of treatment free keepign results in near total losses. I have also heard those the promote treatment free admit that large losses must be tolerated in order to achieve success with treatment free.
    Things have moved along a lot Daniel. The issues are much better understood now. Yes you can fail at it. You can fail at anything. If you have a large commercial operation I can understand a reluctance try. If you try without having a good idea of how to go about it, you may well fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    As for competition. animals are not in competition with the environment. Environment either sustains them or it does not. there is no situation of competition.
    Again you are showing your complete failure to understand even the basic principles of natural selection. No, animals are not in competition with their environment nobody ever said they were. They are in competition with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    There is also no situation of competition in lack of nest locations when previous population has filled it all.
    Where nesting sites are a population limiting factor, then swarms will be competing for nesting sites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Just where do you see that bees are being kept where the natural population is not being effected by kept or even treated bees?
    There are plenty of spaces in between beekeepers for ferals to live. They will be affected in inverse proportion to their distance from apiary bees (and the numbers of apiary drones).

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 07-22-2014 at 02:31 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  9. #209
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    We hear this all the time. These so-called immortal hives usually die out every year or two and the cavity is repopulated by a swarm.
    You have evidence to support this 'usually' Peter? Yeah, cavities are often repopulated in late winter, just in time for people to see bees seamlessly in all except the coldest weather.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  10. #210
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    There is not one reason for survival. Parasites, for example survive because they have found a good host. Viruses survive because they get somebody else's cells to do all the work.
    'Exist' would be a better description.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    An example of a very negative trait in honey bee is its tendency to rob out sick hives, spreading the disease. It would have been a lot better if evolution had provided them with an avoidance trait, avoid the sick and dying.
    The extra energy is worth the risk of disease in the majority of cases. It must be, or evolution would have taken things the other way. There will almost certainly be times and place where that will occur, at leat temporarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    But nothing in nature is perfect, it's all a product of luck & compromise.
    Not quite. Trade-offs yes, with natural selection locating the ever-shifting optimum at any point in time. Luck, yes. But its the luck of the routlette wheel. Underneath the randomness of each spin there are underlying odds that force particular outcomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    By the way, if you use the ignore feature, you can continue to follow the discussion with the noise filtered out
    You can also characterise the input of people with whom you disagree 'noise' in an attempt to achieve what you cannot achieve with reasoned argument. For someone who claims to be able to think scientifically its revealing. I could happily characterise it 'bottom feeding'.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  11. #211
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Bees become acclimated to an environment not by the influence of environment on the genes, but by the change in population makeup over time. Over time, families that are better suited will proliferate and the less well suited will die out. It appears to our eyes that the bees are adapting but this is a matter of perspective. Most died because they couldn't adapt.
    Sound as until you get to here Peter. You're learning.

    'Adapt', 'adaptation' are terms used in a special way in our context. They apply only to populations. So while you're right, you're saying things in a technically incorrect way.

    A minor point but an important one.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Some survived through some trait, such as early build up, or thrift, and propagated that trait. Animals can't adapt because they can't know beforehand what traits would increase their survival, and they can't change their own traits.
    Again. Stick to using 'adapt' either in its proper way, or in the common way - don't mix the different senses.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  12. #212
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    You have evidence to support this 'usually' Peter? Yeah, cavities are often repopulated in late winter, just in time for people to see bees seamlessly in all except the coldest weather.

    Mike (UK)
    Eyewitness testimony in Courts of Law do not stand up as credible the majority of the time, so I hear. So what makes anyone think that anecdotal eyewitness observation of what goes on in the Natural World is any better? Maybe the first bees seen coming and going from a known wall hive are robber bees, not residents, and then after a time a swarm moves in unwitnessed by the observer. Don't you think that is as likely what occurs as anything else? Knowing what we think we know about feral colonies.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  13. #213
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    No, animals are not in competition with their environment nobody ever said they were. They are in competition with each other.
    Where nesting sites are a population limiting factor, then swarms will be competing for nesting sites.
    Mike (UK)
    So animals of one species don't compete w/ animals of other species? Is that called something else? Coexistance? Interspecies competition? Help me here.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  14. #214
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Have you noticed there are some people who seem to believe that whatever they think is true, or why else would they think it? And there are others that want to find out.

    This weekend I was discussing how I had read that Apis laboriosa swarms could chill themselves below ambient temperature to conserve energy. And a physicist pointed out to me that this could not be true. It requires more energy to chill something than to leave it at ambient temperature, and animals can't do this anyway, he said.

    I went back to the article, and realized I had misunderstood. They allow themselves to get very cold, but don't chill themselves. They can generate heat but not cold. I sent the article to him and admitted I had been wrong about it.

  15. #215
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    I know I don't know as much as I think I know. Ya know? I think so anyway.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  16. #216
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Again you are showing your complete failure to understand even the basic principles of natural selection.
    Apparently Mike didn't learn anything for the previous time he pulled this stunt!

    Speaking of "complete failure to understand the basic
    principles of natural selection", here is a fine example. First off, a perfectly reasonable statement from Daniel Y ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    It is even possible that natural selection will cause the extinction of the honey bee.

    And Mike foolishly comes back with this fine bit of puffery ...

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    That's plain nonsense Daniel, born of a poor understanding of natural selection. *Its so wrong I don't know what to say.

    And then after seemingly endless posturing by Mike, this ...
    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Of course natural selection can result in extinction.
    180 degree flip-flop!



    .... 'plain' nonsense ...
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  17. #217
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by CajunBee View Post
    Why remove the environment they are supposed to live in? Why, when beekeeping is so regional, that what applies in the North, doesn't necessarily apply in the South (and vice versa)?
    Can you alter location without an alteration in genetic makeup? Please, I don't pretend to know the answers....far from it. But I don't understand how genetics can not be influenced by the environment, whether it be bees, bears, fish or humans.
    The reduction of environmental influence when making selections is so that you are selecting for genetic traits not environmentally altered or suppressed traits. At one extreme environment can kill the individual. this would be an extreme case of environment altering the selection process. This leads into your second question .why beekeeping is different in one location to another. I suspect it is not the bee that changes it is the environment. indicating just how powerful that influence is. Btu I proposals that all bees at 70 degrees during a flow with similar population in their colonies and a reasonably similar queen will behave reasonably the same and will respond reasonably the same to changes. regardless of geographical location. I follow the advice nearly step by step as Micheal Palmer in VT to rear queens. It works. this begs to differ with the idea that beekeeping is different in different locations. I say locations are different and beekeeping skill varies.

    Back to the environment reduction thing. It needs to be understood in it's context. Understand that eh basic traits have already been selected it is know that the basic tratis exist. Now we want to be able to detect subtle differences in that trait. deciding one individual may just be a fraction of a bit stronger in that trait than the next. This is known as the expression of the genes so an animal may have the gene you want. but you may not know it because the gene is not well expressed. Reducing or eliminating environment influence as well as providing abundant nutrition and comfort helps bring out the full expression of the genes. Working to make this then highly bred blood line suitable to environmental conditions comes later. See how it measures up under environmental conditions can be disappointing.

    This is in no way a process for the casual participant. Think more along the line of a person willing to devote their entire life to the breeding of something.

    If you think of this as one line on a scale. while the casual pick my best hive and make up some queen cells is another line on that same scale. Then yo will begin to see at what point on the scale will it require the average breeder be to actually see results.

    I tend to see very few that are anywhere near where they need to be. There area few. and there realization of just how far up the scale they need to be has been hard won. It has required an unwavering demand for quality. Some have held up that standard and their reputations reflect it. Many have not and it leaves many beekeepers baffled as to why some queens are good and others are worthless.

    I am sad to think that we lost one of the good ones a couple of years ago when they retired. Gratefully I see others that are prepared to start filling that void. I consider Micheal Palmer my semi and probably reluctant mentor when it comes to queen rearing. You can safely assume I consider him one of those that is pushing the bar higher. Micheal Bush s doing the same but with a different direction slightly. There are more but the list is not really very long.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  18. #218
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    No, animals are not in competition with their environment nobody ever said they were. They are in competition with each other.
    And what is the environment? Certainly it includes other animals.

    Stewart Brand wisely said: All evolution is co-evolution. Nothing exists in a vaccum, every species that lives is connected in some way with all the others, past and present. There is competition, cooperation, parasitism. Each of these three exist only in the eyes of the observer. We define these relationships. As Mark said, life wants to live. Some are more or less successful at it.

  19. #219
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Where did this thread get away from me?

  20. #220
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by rogman View Post
    Where did this thread get away from me?
    i've been wondering if you were still lurking.

    thanks for starting the thread.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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