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  1. #301
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post

    You won't get a good apiary in the first place until you have an effective selection and propagation routine going.
    "Breed the best to the best" Where in that quote does it say good?

    Bees are hardly the only animal that large numbers can be produced. A lot of words to simply say bees are large producers of offspring. Hardly unique to just bees. Nearly everything you quoted is outdated and ancient opinions based upon what had been proven effective in other animals. an example of exactly what I had described. Why wouldn't someone think that what worked with other animals would not work with Bees? But as the same practices did not over time produce the same results. The reasons why where looked for.

    Where are the various breeds of bees that would have resulted from the use of these methods? Had they worked such breeds would exist. They produce breeds in every other animal they are used with. But not bees.
    Last edited by Daniel Y; 07-31-2014 at 05:36 AM.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  2. #302
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
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    1,663

    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    "Breed the best to the best" Where in that quote does it say good?

    Bees are hardly the only animal that large numbers can be produced. A lot of words to simply say bees are large producers of offspring. Hardly unique to just bees. Nearly everything you quoted is outdated and ancient opinions based upon what had been proven effective in other animals. an example of exactly what I had described. Why wouldn't someone think that what worked with other animals would not work with Bees? But as the same practices did not over time produce the same results. The reasons why where looked for.

    Where are the various breeds of bees that would have resulted from the use of these methods? Had they worked such breeds would exist. They produce breeds in every other animal they are used with. But not bees.
    Ugh. I give up. Daniel knows better than every bee breeder or apiarist who's ever taken his job half seriously, and the refutes testimony of some of the most respected bee breeders ever. Ruttner? An idiot. Brother Adam? Deluded.

    He does it with questions like:

    "Breed the best to the best" Where in that quote does it say good?"

    What can you say to that? Where do you start? Can you have any hope at all of making an impact on 'thinking' like that?

    Keep it up Daniel. Good luck with your beekeeping.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  3. #303
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,323

    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Well, Mike, if you are choosing not to respond to Daniel's comments in the future, that likely will free up a good chunk of your time. Maybe you could use that time to correct those errors on your website? Here is one of them ...

    It can be seen that modern beekeeping practice is the sole cause of the crisis affecting both wild and domestic bees.

    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/


    ... need I remind you again about forage availability and landowner applied pesticide issues ...
    Graham
    -- The real problem is not precise language, it's clear language. - Richard Feynman

  4. #304
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
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    3,064

    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Mike, What would be the need to resort to insults?
    You are the one that says breeding the best to the best works.

    But then you calim "You won't get a good apiary in the first place until you have an effective selection and propagation routine going."

    But don't you have to have the best to get an effective propagation and selection routine going? Or am I correct that best to best does not necessarily mean good?

    Best does nto mean good. It may mean that in fact the best you have is extremely poor. Traditionally, regardless of how poor your best is. breeding the best to the best still works. your stock improves. Earlier you attempted to twist this point to claim I said it would stop working if the breeder did not remain ignorant. I never said it wood stop working at all. I said it has never worked with Honey Bees.

    The truth is start with very poor stock to select from. breed the best of them to the best and you will actually see very dramatic results. It is when you gain exceptional stock and breed it to exceptional stock that further progress is difficult and that even minor judgment in selection can cost dearly. It is easy to improve on extremely poor. much more difficult to improve on exceptional.

    But again you seem to have made an argument that says that you can obtain exceptional stock b breeding exceptional stock to exceptional stock. And without breeding in this manner it is not possible to get exceptional stock. My question is. Then where did you get the exceptional stock to start with? From just random natural pairings according to you. Are you to say that just random pairing in mating in the Honey bee is what produces the best bees? Now keep in mind my interpretation of best because it very much applies in my use of it here. So let me be blunt. You mean that those sickly little pathetic things you call best are produced by random chance? By simply letting whole communities of colonies mass fornicate? Isn't that what I was saying? breeding on a communal basis rather than individual colon to colony. Selection of apiaries rather than colonies. maintaining broader genetic variation. Etc. etc. etc.

    I still want to know how you breed the best to the best if you cannot possibly get the best without already having the best.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  5. #305
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,663

    Default Re: What Percent of Hives Are Feral vs Kept

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    I still want to know how you breed the best to the best if you cannot possibly get the best without already having the best.
    Keep at it Daniel. You'll work it out.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

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