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  1. #61
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    I put up a thread on a NY Times editorial, and the usual suspects show up with the same old routine.

    Predictable.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    I think you are the usual suspect with the same old routine LOL.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #63
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Thanks Nabber. For a long time I've been trying to figure if WLC really is a scientist, or not. Now I know.


    He was doxed a while back. The best I can tell is that he is a high school special ed. teacher.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  4. #64
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Same old, same old. Discredit the messenger.

    Of course, I didn't write the editorial, do the Worldwide assessment, form a task force, or have anything to do with Home Depot's upcoming action on neonics in its garden plants.

    I've got my Master's in Biology, taught as a lab instructor in college, etc. .

    I have no objections if you're an exterminator, work in a pesticide plant, or have pesticide applicator credentials.

    I just object to the usual antics.

    Here in the U.S., people want a change in how we're currently overusing certain pesticides.

    Simply put, I agree.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I've got my Master's in Biology, taught as a lab instructor in college, etc. .

    I have no objections if you're an exterminator, work in a pesticide plant, or have pesticide applicator credentials.
    Are you not a high school teacher? Seems like I read that on your CV. Not that that is a bad thing, but it hardly qualifies as a research scientist.

    Just about anyone with a masters degree in a science field teaches a lab. You have never demonstrated any knowledge of the scientific method, except for sprinkling your posts with scientific terms like diploid and saying that you are running "experiments". When you described your experiment with soybeans it was seriously flawed on many levels. Your antics do not project you as a scientist.


    FWIW. I am not an exterminator, nor am I a research scientist. I have just spent the better part of 25 years working running complex chemical transport models for groundwater and vertical migration through the soil column. I also work with air dispersion of contaminants. I routinely search through scientific publications to keep up with the newest research. I spend hours on end evaluating and interpreting laboratory data and qualifying it. I work with a team (environmental scientists, chemists, toxicologists, remediation engineers, environmental risk assessors, and yes even biologists) to come up with real solutions to real world problems. We just don't sit around saying that a chemical has a long half-life, therefore it is bad. I as said higher up in the thread, there is a whole lot more to it than that.
    Last edited by Nabber86; 07-02-2014 at 08:59 AM. Reason: to be some what nicer
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  6. #66
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    He was doxed a while back. The best I can tell is that he is a high school special ed. teacher.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Same old, same old. Discredit the messenger.

    I've got my Master's in Biology, taught as a lab instructor in college, etc. .

    I just object to the usual antics.

    WLC not much difference then your discrediting Randy and Peter's (and others) hard life work based on their lack of a Phd.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    My opinion on much of what has been said here can be summarized witht he comment below:

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Here in the U.S., people want a change in how we're currently overusing certain pesticides.
    I agree with this statement. Companies can use coated seeds if they want, unless they are deemed illegal. However, as the consumer I had no idea they used coated seeds until it hit the news and petitions. People are becoming more knowledgeable and informed about pesticides, neonics, GMO's etc. Largely people I talk to learn about this because of the all the media related to the so called bee crisis. Frankly I think many people are knocked back a bit by the widespread usage.

    As a business you have every right to use pesticides/coated seeds if they are legal. However, if they cause no harm, then why are businesses so reluctant to label conspicuously, accordingly? As the consumer I believe I have a right to know what I am buying. I don't think there should be anything incredibly controversial about asking for transparency.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Although the editorial is about a broader issue, neonic drenched, pollinator friendly, plants being sold at Home Depot, etc., is just way too cynical to tolerate.

    You buy some plants for your Honeybees, and you wonder why they're not doing so well.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelosopher View Post
    As a business you have every right to use pesticides/coated seeds if they are legal. However, if they cause no harm, then why are businesses so reluctant to label conspicuously, accordingly? As the consumer I believe I have a right to know what I am buying. I don't think there should be anything incredibly controversial about asking for transparency.
    Are you saying that you cannot tell if the seeds that you buy have been treated with pesticides? The typical ones that I have seen (sweet corn) are dyed hot pink and they are labeled as "treated"; it's pretty easy to tell.

    Someone else mention several organic seed suppliers. I use Seeds of Change as a source. I even see seeds that are labeled as "organic" at home depot.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  10. #70
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    Are you saying that you cannot tell if the seeds that you buy have been treated with pesticides? The typical ones that I have seen (sweet corn) are dyed hot pink and they are labeled as "treated"; it's pretty easy to tell.

    Someone else mention several organic seed suppliers. I use Seeds of Change as a source. I even see seeds that are labeled as "organic" at home depot.
    Sorry nabber, I should have been more clear. I was more referring to the plants they sell at Home Depot (have read these are neonic seeds and there is no labeling to that effect when you buy them); as well as the GMO seeds used to ultimately raise crops that are manufactured into processed foods like corn chips, etc., which are unlabeled when they are resold as a processed food. I believe everything utilizing these technologies should be labeled as such so the consumer has an informed choice (like they do in several other nations). I believe that when you read this on the label you will go google it and then, maybe avoid most of those foods except the really awesome Cheetos or other product you can't quit.

    No I don't know if Cheetos use gmo products, but I can't quit them!

    We raise virtually all our own seedlings for our garden. However I was unaware that many of the pregrown plants for gardens at home depot are neonics (or at least that is what I have been reading.)

    The reason the FDA and special interests don't want GMO labeling is because they wanted to avoid question asking (IMO). As these technologies have started to become under scrutiny, it is only now that people are becoming informed about the widespread use. I had no idea what GMOs were several years ago, yet they have been around a long time. I think many people were like me and started to question if these were the sort of experiments we wanted to take on our selves and our children. I have no problem with people who want to do that, or don't perceive a risk. I just want a choice.

    It is impossible for me to believe that these products have the risk level that their producers claim.
    Last edited by Beelosopher; 07-02-2014 at 11:02 AM.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    My understanding of untreated seed availability here in Ontario, was that you had to special order it last fall if you wanted it for this spring. Prior to this, the best corn and soybean hybrids/strains weren't even offered untreated. If an organic farmer wanted untreated seed they had to settle for an inferior variety.
    Adam - Zone 5A
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  12. #72
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelosopher View Post
    Sorry nabber, I should have been more clear. I was more referring to the plants they sell at Home Depot (have read these are neonic seeds and there is no labeling to that effect when you buy them); as well as the GMO seeds used to ultimately raise crops that are manufactured into processed foods like corn chips, etc., which are unlabeled when they are resold as a processed food. I believe everything utilizing these technologies should be labeled as such so the consumer has an informed choice (like they do in several other nations). I believe that when you read this on the label you will go google it and then, maybe avoid most of those foods except the really awesome Cheetos or other product you can't quit.
    I grow my garden plants from seed. I always assumed that all plants that you buy from HD, and just about any nursery, are treated with pesticides. If you are running a large nursery and have a aphid infestation you will loose a lot of money.

    I don't have a problem with GMOs, but I do think that they should be labeled. That way people can avoid GMOs if they want to. Who knows? If enough people stop buying GMO foods, maybe they will stop using them. I don't have a problem with that either,
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  13. #73
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    I grow my garden plants from seed. I always assumed that all plants that you buy from HD, and just about any nursery, are treated with pesticides. If you are running a large nursery and have a aphid infestation you will loose a lot of money.

    I don't have a problem with GMOs, but I do think that they should be labeled. That way people can avoid GMOs if they want to. Who knows? If enough people stop buying GMO foods, maybe they will stop using them. I don't have a problem with that either,
    Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders nabber. Finally an agreement on beesource haha!

    I have grown from seed for the past five years, but the years before that we sometimes grabbed from HD in a pinch. 5 years ago I didn't know what a neonic was or GMO. Not completely sure how bad they are. But not completely sure how good they are.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Fellas, it's not the GMOs that are the issue.

    It's the pervasive use of neonicotinoids.

    If we cultivate 170 million acres of corn and soybeans, and most of that is clothianidin coated seeds, then we need to question the practice.

    That's the issue, in my opinion.

    I don't think that we have over 100 million acres that require clothianidin pesticide treatment.

    According to the media, the WIA report is saying that neonicotinoids are causing planet wide environmental contamination.
    Last edited by WLC; 07-02-2014 at 12:46 PM.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelosopher View Post
    Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders nabber. Finally an agreement on beesource haha!
    Everyone thinks I am a shill for Mansanto, Bayer, or whomever is the next target of the eco-warriors is. I really don't care one way or the other. I just don't like bad science, bad reporting, bad data sourcing, no independent analysis, hype, and sensationalism. I am also not a conspiracy theorist so as it stands now, WLC and people like him are losing the battle by making their movement look silly. Silliness does not help in serious discussion.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  16. #76
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    Everyone thinks I am a shill for Mansanto, Bayer, or whomever is the next target of the eco-warriors is. I really don't care one way or the other. I just don't like bad science, bad reporting, bad data sourcing, no independent analysis, hype, and sensationalism. I am also not a conspiracy theorist so as it stands now, WLC and people like him are losing the battle by making their movement look silly. Silliness does not help in serious discussion.
    That's trolling. And, it's pointless.

    If you think that the WAI report is bad science, address it appropriately.

    "WLC and people like him...'?

    Do you mean highly educated professionals?

  17. #77
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    ...and if you have to tell people how highly educated you are because it isn't apparent by your words and actions?

    You've chosen to start a thread...not about the report, but the fact that the NYT editorial page invoked the name of Rachel Carson.

    If you think the document has merit then discuss the document. What does the NYT editorial page bring to the analysis of the document? It seems to me that to are leaning on the Times to provide credibility for a scientific document....where in your vast education did you learn to trust the times for critical science analysis?
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  18. #78
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    I know just about every profile says the same thing. Regardless, this was good for a chuckle.
    7-2-2014 5-11-21 PM.jpg

  19. #79
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    I agree with near 100% of this. Neonics are certainly a problem....and certainly not the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Fellas, it's not the GMOs that are the issue.

    It's the pervasive use of neonicotinoids.

    If we cultivate 170 million acres of corn and soybeans, and most of that is clothianidin coated seeds, then we need to question the practice.

    That's the issue, in my opinion.

    I don't think that we have over 100 million acres that require clothianidin pesticide treatment.

    According to the media, the WIA report is saying that neonicotinoids are causing planet wide environmental contamination.
    Last edited by deknow; 07-02-2014 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Neonics not neon it
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  20. #80
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    Default Re: NY Times Editorial: "Risking Another Silent Spring".

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...and if you have to tell people how highly educated you are because it isn't apparent by your words and actions?
    Thanks for summarizing what I was trying to say. Anyone can claim credentials on the internet including myself (Post 65). People can believe me or not, just as they can believe WLC or not. In the end it really doesn't matter because someone with real credentials can tell by the content of the posting whether or not somebody knows what they are talking about. If one claims to be highly educated yet continually posts basic errors such as:


    • Poorly design experiments



    • Cherry picking data to an extreme degree (the highest value that can be found)



    • Focusing on one parameter and ignoring many other parameters that intertwine



    • Not being able to do anything with the data (analysis) after posting



    • Demonstrating a poor understanding of math; especially statistics



    • Spewing out catch phrases



    • Stating the obvious facts like it is some kind of revelation (i.e. There are currently over 80 million acres of soybean and 90 million acres of corn in production in the U.S.; most of that is clothianidin coated seed).



    • Self aggrandization



    • Sensationalism



    • Hyperbole



    • Evasion of direct questions



    • Drifting to change the topic when in trouble



    • Context dropping



    One may be highly educated, but this style shows very little intelligence and a poor scientific ethic. It does not help solve the problem at hand.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

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