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  1. #41
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    wdale where you been. This stuff has been used for many years. I'm surprised we're all still alive. What nonsense.

    Cam Bishop
    www.circle7honey.com
    The link goes to "Circle Seven Honey and Pollination - For all your pollination needs"

    First paragraph:

    We are no longer pollinating conventionally farmed products due to losses from pesticides/fungicides. We will bring hives to crops where there is a firm, written commitment not to spray with ANYTHING while our bees are in your fields.

    Cam, I understand it's a mixed bag. A lot of hype, and so on. But with your hives and your bees at stake, it's not like "ANYTHING" goes. So maybe it's not ALL nonsense? The question then might be, where do we draw the line? And how do we decide? What studies do we believe? How can we tell? How do we distinguish you and wdale on these questions, in actual practice?

  2. #42
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    Apr 2011
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    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofu View Post
    where do we draw the line? And how do we decide? What studies do we believe? How can we tell? How do we distinguish you and wdale on these questions, in actual practice?
    Takes years of experience to recognize the sincere and competent academics from the insincere and incompetent ones because there is no single place the public can obtain this information. In other words, there is no "better business bureau" that the public can consult to help them recognize good academics from bad ones. Academia itself has no self policing system in place. So a professor is free to post scary and frightening things about a pesticide if they want to like this UC Berkeley professor has in regards to atrazine herbicide http://atrazinelovers.com/ and their peers in the academic community won't do anything about it.

  3. #43
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    Sep 2009
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    Millbury, MA, USA
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofu View Post
    The link goes to "Circle Seven Honey and Pollination - For all your pollination needs"

    First paragraph:
    We are no longer pollinating conventionally farmed products due to losses from pesticides/fungicides. We will bring hives to crops where there is a firm, written commitment not to spray with ANYTHING while our bees are in your fields.

    Cam, I understand it's a mixed bag. A lot of hype, and so on. But with your hives and your bees at stake, it's not like "ANYTHING" goes. So maybe it's not ALL nonsense? The question then might be, where do we draw the line? And how do we decide? What studies do we believe? How can we tell? How do we distinguish you and wdale on these questions, in actual practice?
    It's difficult to be sure. I've lost several hives pollinating apples a couple years ago. I have basically quit pollination as a result. I have consistently felt and posted that I believe it's a combination of fungicides and pesticides acting in concert. There is a huge difference between sprays on the trees and dandelions while they are in bloom and seed treatment. No pesticide is safe for bees but there is a degree of danger and we all need to recognize them for our bees health. That doesn't mean we should believe the shills on either side but study and decide for ourselves. The bees tell us what's bad for them and what isn't. My studies and observation tell me the neonics are much safer for my bees and for my family than the previous family of pesticides. And watch out for those fungicides, they are worse than most understand for bees.

  4. #44
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    Dec 2006
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    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,609

    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    A friend in the UK lost 80% of the colonies in one of his apiaries this spring from a pesticide kill on oil seed rape. The UK has banned neonics so the farmer sprayed the crop with a traditional pesticide.

    Thing is, with neonic treated OSR, he was making a nice crop of canola honey.

    And now…...

  5. #45
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    Jun 2011
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    brownwood, TX, USA
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    862

    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    I tried to keep from opening this thread, but my curiosity was too great. Still, I wish we didn't have these very divisive topics on our forum.

  6. #46
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    Jan 2011
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    Athens, OH
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    2,794

    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    This might be a red herring, but the recent BIP results for the Central region show bees are slightly more likely to survive when located near corn.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride. -H.S. Thompson

  7. #47
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    Jan 2011
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    Philadelphia, PA
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by lazy shooter View Post
    I tried to keep from opening this thread, but my curiosity was too great. Still, I wish we didn't have these very divisive topics on our forum.
    Why does it have to be so divisive?

    I ask that seriously. I know in a general way, but on the face of it you'd think we're the ones who are best-informed and most motivated to work out the differences.

    I was talking with my mom on the phone a few days ago, and the conversation shifted from my beekeeping activities to pollinator-support actions in her area -- western Massachusetts. For example, a group called Pollinators Welcome, which operates in the middle of the sorts of issues we're talking about in this thread. I commented on the national environmental organizations that have been jumping on the "save-the-bees" bandwagon in the last year or so, and she said she thought I wasn't really paying attention to stuff like that.

    Several times recently, I've had friends and family lecture me about "the bees," as if I don't really follow that stuff at the political, environmental level. I'm in my 4th year of beekeeping. It does seem like when you're directly, hands-on involved in keeping bees, the issues get more complex and contradictory. And maybe in order to go ahead and "do what needs to be done," we need to simplify the issues. In order to use treatments for our bees, or order queens from the mass-production facilities down South, we need to cut through the 'crap' and just do it. Beekeepers who provide pollination services need to empathize with the farmers and agricultural companies that need pollination but also feel like they need to use pesticides and fungicides. If neonics are less of a threat to our bees, then we can find a way to accept them and hope that it's not so bad.

    Personally, I am concerned about other pollinators, and other species that may be affected by neonicotinoid pesticides. I think DDT and tobacco are two examples where vested interests were able to delay political decisions, and a lot of damage accumulated before the legal and political systems were able to "prove" that the damage was occurring. So in one way, beekeepers are on the front lines in this battle, and in another way we're on the sidelines and we can say it's not our concern.

  8. #48
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    May 2013
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    Tineo, Asturias, SPAIN
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    184

    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofu View Post
    Why does it have to be so divisive?
    Because anything to do with agriculture, chemicals, and science in general, becomes highly politicized in the U.S. It doesn't matter whether you think pesticides are generally positive, or generally negative, if you express an opinion someone will call you a shill. Or worse.

    A lot of people on both sides of the issue are more interested in hearing their own voices than having a civil (or productive) discussion.

    Welcome to the internet.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by ForrestB View Post
    A lot of people on both sides of the issue are more interested in hearing their own voices than having a civil (or productive) discussion.

    Welcome to the internet.
    Yes, I get that. My question is more about beekeepers. How do we recognize the difficulties, and still have civil, productive discussions? On the whole, BeeSource does give us a forum where we can get the facts and opinions out on the table, and most people here are reasonably civil. I'm learning from this conversation, and maybe others are as well. E.g., about Michael Palmer's friend in the U.K. with bees who died from an older generation of pesticides, now that neonics are banned in Europe.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    FB has it right. There's a lot of politics under the surface of pesticides and Honeybees.

    I've read the evidence in the scientific literature. I've also listened to the opposing views.

    We need to act quickly and respond in the right measure.

    My own opinion is that bans are counter productive.

    We need choice.

    We need the option to use/buy the pesticide in a product, or not.

    Unfortunately, that's not the current state of affairs here in the U.S. .

  11. #51
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    demand/supply, it's upside down. who wants even more homo sapians dying of hunger?

    (tried to stay out but couldn't )
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #52
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Funny thing squarepeg,

    My paternal grandfather was able to raise a large family, farm some big colonial acreage, and he didn't need any chemicals.

    Are you in some kind of a 'pesticide fantasy'?

    I'm growing soybeans. At first, they took some hits from pests. But, guess who showed up? Insect predators.

    Fellas, I don't treat my bees. They're looking good so far.

    I think some of you are 'hooked'.

  13. #53
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    May 2014
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    Sedgwick Co. KS
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    211

    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Funny thing squarepeg,

    My paternal grandfather was able to raise a large family, farm some big colonial acreage, and he didn't need any chemicals.

    Are you in some kind of a 'pesticide fantasy'?

    I'm growing soybeans. At first, they took some hits from pests. But, guess who showed up? Insect predators.

    Fellas, I don't treat my bees. They're looking good so far.

    I think some of you are 'hooked'.

    You don't treat your bees or beans? I presume you mean beans. No pesticides at all? No glyphosates or weed inhibitors?

  14. #54
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    No. Nothing. Not soybeans. Not Honeybees.

    They don't need them.

  15. #55
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I think some of you are 'hooked'.
    some word argue civilization as we know it is 'hooked'.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #56
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    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    > I presume you mean beans. No pesticides at all? No glyphosates or weed inhibitors?

    Tim, perhaps some perspective is in order here.

    The soybeans that WLC is growing are all in a 3'x3' planter on a building rooftop in New York City.




    "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  17. #57
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    Feb 2005
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    Tucson, Arizona, USA
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    some word argue civilization as we know it is 'hooked'.
    squarpeg, What does your sentence above, mean?
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  18. #58
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Radar, they're also in a community garden.

    They'll soon be in pedestrian island planters as well.

    We've got some young trees, recently planted, that need some intervention.

    Soybeans are my seed of choice since we've become 'acquainted'.

    I like their vigor.

  19. #59
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Clemens View Post
    squarpeg, What does your sentence above, mean?
    I'll try.

    the greatest user of the man made chemicals that the thread is addressing here is modern agriculture. it's hard to overstate the importance of and therefore the vested interested in we as a species have in this regard. it compels us to get the job right in order for all of us to have food to eat.

    we have become a technical society in which the vast majority of us do not produce our own food, it is produced by others for us. it's so fundamental that our federal government has decided to have the last word on what any person or entity can or can not do in this regard. this is why engaging the the political process pay dividends to those who vest the time and/or treasure there.

    i'm an optimist. i feel like there is enough distribution of power (at least there has been in the past) to make our sysyem of government get it mostly right, but neither am i blind to when it has gotten it wrong.

    it's really not an either/or, but rather a both/and, it's finding that imformed best way forward that takes into the validity of both sides, and but sometimes have to be a squarepeg to achieve that.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #60
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    Stilwell, KS
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I'm growing soybeans. At first, they took some hits from pests. But, guess who showed up? Insect predators.
    You grow a dozen plants on the roof. If your livelyhood depended on 2,000 acres of soybean, things would be different.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

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