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  1. #21
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Lots of opinions here. Lots of attitude too. No sure why apologies are being given and accepted to be honest. Seems a bit high horse-ish to me. Doesnt sound like most even read the articles. *shrug*

  2. #22
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by mattheritage View Post
    Lots of opinions here. Lots of attitude too. No sure why apologies are being given and accepted to be honest. Seems a bit high horse-ish to me. Doesnt sound like most even read the articles. *shrug*
    Pot, meet Kettle.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Here's a link to the source. It was a 5 year study of 800 published research papers on systemic pesticides. While there have been a few that support that neonics are safe (canola doesn't seem to have effects that corn and soy bean do), the majority of studies are pointing to them being a serious problem for all pollinators, birds and aquatic wildlife.

    http://www.tfsp.info/

    Here's a video summarizing their findings:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QceID-Vb64#t=104
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  4. #24
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Not a peer reviewed study, just some opinions.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    Not a peer reviewed study, just some opinions.
    It is a 5 year review of peer reviewed studies. I think to say its just opinions isn't really fair. If they looked at 800 studies and the results of 700 indicated that neonics were a problem, that is not opinion, that's fact.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  6. #26
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    ... the majority of studies are pointing to them being a serious problem for all pollinators, birds and aquatic wildlife.

    http://www.tfsp.info/
    These 50 scientists are mostly concerned about pollinators and other wildlife, not honeybees. Of course, there's no particular reason for beekeepers to be concerned, as long as our bees aren't dying much more than they ever have (for whatever reasons). We've figured out how to make increase, to make thousands of queens and distribute them across the country, to use nucs for back-up etc. As long we can keep our bees alive, it's okay if farmers can't get at least some pollination from other sorts of insects. And if it's not for raising food, then we can live without it. Right?

  7. #27
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Great video zhiv9

  8. #28
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    It is a 5 year review of peer reviewed studies. I think to say its just opinions isn't really fair. If they looked at 800 studies and the results of 700 indicated that neonics were a problem, that is not opinion, that's fact.
    Not one name on the web site, much less their credentials. I can be called a scientist according to my other profession but I have no expertise concerning pesticides and am certainly not an entomologist. Also no list of these "studies" they reviewed. If they are studies like the 2 recently released from Harvard they are a waste of time and would certainly lead one to believe that neonics are the worst ever. The CREDIBLE studies I've read mostly do not reach a strong conclusion either way. But all studies of field realistic neonics - other than the corn planting problem - show no real problem.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    The CREDIBLE studies I've read mostly do not reach a strong conclusion either way. But all studies of field realistic neonics - other than the corn planting problem - show no real problem.
    And which CREDIBLE studies are those?

  10. #30
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    Not one name on the web site, much less their credentials.
    The Worldwide Integrated Assessment (WIA) presents the first attempt to synthesize the state of knowledge on the risks to biodiversity and ecosystem functioning posed by the widespread global use of neonicotinoids and fipronil. It is based on the results of over 800 peer-reviewed journal articles published over the past two decades. The Authors assessed respectively the trends, uses, mode of action and metabolites (Simon-Delso et al. 2014), the environmental fate and exposure (Bonmatin et al. 2014), effects on non-target invertebrates (Pisa et al. 2014), direct and indirect effects on vertebrate wildlife (Gibbons et al. 2014), risks to ecosystem functioning and services (Chagnon et al. 2014) and finally explored sustainable pest management practices that can serve as alternatives to the use of neonicotinoids and fipronil (Furlan and Kreutzweiser 2014).

    -- http://www.tfsp.info/findings/conclusions/

    The full 'Conclusions' chapter, with all the names and affiliations of the authors of that chapter, is a PDF at http://www.tfsp.info/wp-content/uplo...ns-summary.pdf

    I haven't found the citations listed in the paragraph quoted above, but that would be the next step. Seven names: Simon-Delso, Bonmatin, Pisa, Gibbons, Chagnon, Furlan and Kreutzweiser.

    With the European Union having banned neonics for a few years, for the more extensive uses, there is going to be some science involved, and this is probably part of that overall project.

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    I can be called a scientist according to my other profession but I have no expertise concerning pesticides and am certainly not an entomologist. Also no list of these "studies" they reviewed. If they are studies like the 2 recently released from Harvard they are a waste of time and would certainly lead one to believe that neonics are the worst ever. The CREDIBLE studies I've read mostly do not reach a strong conclusion either way. But all studies of field realistic neonics - other than the corn planting problem - show no real problem.
    As a scientist, you have the tools to explore the 800 studies that were included in this survey. That list of studies will be available to you soon, I'm sure. Publication of this study was embargoed until June 24, so it's just coming out now.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    Not one name on the web site, much less their credentials.
    One name that occurs at least twice is Dr. Jean-Marc Bonmatin, a French scientist. He's the Vice-Chairman of the Board of the task force, he works at Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, Centre de Biophysique Moléculaire, rue Charles Sadron 45071 Orléans Cedex 02, France, and his name is cited in the 'Conclusions' as lead author of an article on environmental fate and exposure (?).

    His credentials can easily be found on the web. Three of his most cited works are listed at BioMedExperts as:
    • Qiansong Zhang; Juliette R Ongus; Willem Jan Boot; Johan Calis; Jean-Marc Bonmatin; Eberhard Bengsch; Dick Peters. "Detection and localisation of picorna-like virus particles in tissues of Varroa destructor, an ectoparasite of the honey bee, Apis mellifera."
    • Jean-Marc Bonmatin; P A Marchand; R Charvet; I Moineau; Eberhard Bengsch; Marc Edouard Colin. "Quantification of imidacloprid uptake in maize crops."
    • Juliette R Ongus; Dick Peters; Jean-Marc Bonmatin; Eberhard Bengsch; Just M Vlak; Monique M van Oers. "Complete sequence of a picorna-like virus of the genus Iflavirus replicating in the mite Varroa destructor."

    Another site, ResearchGate, gives three different citations:
    • Gaël Charpentier, Fanny Louat, Jean-Marc Bonmatin, Patrice André Marchand, Fanny Vannier, Daniel Locker, Martine Decoville, "Lethal and sublethal effects of imidacloprid, after chronic exposure, on the insect model Drosophila melanogaster."
    • Delphine Paradis, Géraldine Bérail, Jean-Marc Bonmatin, Luc P Belzunces. "Sensitive analytical methods for 22 relevant insecticides of 3 chemical families in honey by GC-MS/MS and LC-MS/MS."
    • Jeroen P. van der Sluijs, Noa Simon-Delso, Dave Goulson, Laura Maxim, Jean-Marc Bonmatin, Luc P. Belzunces. "Neonicotinoids, bee disorders and the sustainability of pollinator services"

    If there's a scientist involved in this project with experience related to beekeeping, but also in wider fields of study, it seems to me Mr. Bonmatin is one. There might be others among the 50 most directly involved. What do you think?

  12. #32
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofu View Post

    As a scientist, you have the tools to explore the 800 studies that were included in this survey. That list of studies will be available to you soon, I'm sure. Publication of this study was embargoed until June 24, so it's just coming out now.
    If it is "embargoed" (whatever the heck that means), why is there a news report on it and some flakey dubious website refering to it? Giving out conclusions with nothing to back it up = shoddy reporting. The more I look into it, the more suspicious it gets.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  13. #33
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    "Embargoed" just means it was due for publication, and until then they asked news organizations that were aware of it (and may have had advance copies) to hold off reporting on it. June 24th was a few days ago, so yes, now there are news reports about it.

    As for the more than 800 studies, it sounds like they're probably cited in the seven articles listed in the 'Conclusions' chapter. So when we have the dates and names of the publications for those articles, we are 9/10ths of the way to a full listing. I don't have online access to scholarly journals, but others here do, so it's just a matter of time.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinH View Post
    And which CREDIBLE studies are those?
    Here are 3... if you bother to read them. I am not a pro insecticide guy. I was an organic farmer for many years. But I can't stand the disinformation out there. Further, most of you are too young to have seen the devastation that the organophosphates did to bee hives in the 50's and 60's. These neonics are so much safer for both the bees and humans.

    While it is undeniable that overwintering losses of commercial honeybee colonies are higher than they were in the recent past, there is no clear indication that pesticides are the root cause of such losses. The USDA survey shed light on the pattern of honeybee losses across the United States and concluded that such losses were unrelated to the patterns of agricultural pesticide use, in general, or neonicotinoid use, in particular. While beekeepers may have difficulty diagnosing a new phenomenon such as colony collapse disorder, they are familiar with other causes of colony loss; and pesticides ranked 8th on the list of possible causes of colony loss in the USDA survey [3].

    Additionally, the epidemiological evidence from Europe shows no correlation of honeybee losses to pesticide use and indicates the presence of causal factors other than pesticides, although it is not yet possible to completely discount potential interactive effects of neonicotinoids with other stressors. Finally, the time of year when increased mortality of honeybees is the late fall and over the winter, whereas the highest pesticide use occurs in the spring and early summer.

    The life span of forager bees is very short (approximately 1 mo), so the bees that may be exposed to the insecticide in the spring and early summer are not the same bees that overwinter in the hive. Additionally, it has been shown that neonicotinoids do not accumulate over time in the environment, the colony, or the honeybees. Given these 2 attributes of neonicotinoids and bees, it is not possible for the chemicals to have latent effects that are expressed months after application.

    All of the neonicotinoid insecticides have been reviewed and approved in many jurisdictions around the world, including Europe, Australia, Japan, Canada, and the United States; and they have been used for more than 15 yr on a variety of crops. Therefore, a significant body of data from both laboratory and field studies is available to assess the risks to colonies of honeybees.

    The available data indicate that there may be effects to individual honeybees housed under laboratory conditions and exposed to unrealistically high concentrations of the insecticides. However, under field conditions and exposure levels, similar effects on honeybee colonies have not been documented. It is not reasonable, therefore, to conclude that crop-applied pesticides in general, or neonicotinoids in particular, are a major risk factor for honeybee colonies, given the current approved uses and beekeeping practices

    Because both pesticides and pollinators are critical to the continuing success of worldwide agriculture, it is imperative that we learn to accurately and honestly assess the benefits and risks of their interactions on commercial honeybees and other pollinators.

    Risks of Neonicotinoid Insecticides to Honeybees
    Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry, Vol. 33, No. 4, April, 2014

    FYI, APVMA has released its overview report on bee health and the use of
    neonics in Australia:
    http://www.apvma.gov.au/news_media/c...icotinoids.php



    Of note: "*On the basis of information available to it, the APVMA is
    currently of the view that the introduction of the neonicotinoids has led
    to an overall reduction in the risks to the agricultural environment from
    the application of insecticides. This view is also balanced with the advice
    that Australian honeybee populations are not in decline, despite the
    increased use of this group of insecticides in agriculture and horticulture
    since the mid-1990s*."

    from DEFRA:

    > While this assessment cannot exclude rare effects of neonicotinoids on bees in the field, it suggests that effects on bees do not occur under normal circumstances. This assessment also suggests that laboratory based studies demonstrating sub-lethal effects on bees from neonicotinoids did not replicate realistic conditions, but extreme scenarios. Consequently, it supports the view that the risk to bee populations from neonicotinoids, as they are currently used, is low.

    > Evidence suggests that populations of bees in free-ranging situations do not normally experience the levels of neonicotinoids that result in sub-lethal toxic effects. This, together with the dilution effect of bees not always feeding upon treated crops, is the most likely reason why field studies do not demonstrate the same effects as studies where bees are given artificial doses of pesticide.

    > Insects are significant pollinators of crops like oilseed rape where yields can collapse in the absence of pollinators [12-18]. In the UK, neonicotinoids have been used as seed treatments on OSR for 10 years. This suggests that if pesticide use was reducing pollinator effectiveness then this would also be detrimental to crop productivity. Consequently, the claim that treatment of OSR with neonicotinoids kills pollinators is partly countered by the success of the crops themselves.

    © Crown copyright 2013

  15. #35
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    WOW. Thanks Cam. I will be saving your post and links .
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  16. #36
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Everything is a chemical, or a combination of chemicals. Every single thing. Pure water is a chemical.

    And even the most synthesized, processed, artificial substance in the world is at its base a combination of substances which occur in nature.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  17. #37
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    swallowed the Global warming kool aid
    you kind of slide down the credibility scale given to sober adults commenting on such things.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Thanks JustinH
    This one is super informative!
    http://libcloud.s3.amazonaws.com/93/...eport-2014.pdf

    I have been watching this unfold over the past while

    ALL BEE KEEPERS SHOULD GET THE WORD OUT THERE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING
    I have just seen a corn crop and small berry farm near where I work ::: seeing this farmer spraying his crop with this dust.

    YOU CAN GUESS what the farmer was using brand name on tag of product "XXXXXXXXX" which contains neonicotinoid and clothionidin. Both very bad even in small amounts. This poison is in the air, water, ground and now it is in the food we eat. Why I say this is that this is that just seen the farmer spraying his corn fields and strawberry and blueberries plants that we are going to eat.
    When I confronted this framer he was not aware that he was poisoning the food we are eating! (he told me that he was sold this chemical to help combat insects)
    I have found out this chemical can be mixed into water and could be mixed as dust and then sprayed. Also being used (coated with before the plant begins to grow from seed.
    We need to start putting the brakes on this chemical by going to our government people and forcing them to doo something before are all poisoned

  19. #39
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    Wdale I have a question in regards to your last sentence.
    Shouldn't you already be poisoned or is this the first time this chemical has been used?

  20. #40
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    Default Re: papers provide conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass death

    wdale where you been. This stuff has been used for many years. I'm surprised we're all still alive. What nonsense.

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