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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    I'm questioning why I should be excited enough about this treatment to go ahead and use it despite its not having been approved or evaluated scientifically in the US (since that reason for not using it appears to not be a "good enough" reason in some folks' opinion).
    Show me where they have approved dusting with powdered sugar. but that argument is even getting tiring to me. they do not run around approving anything. they run around finding those things they say needs to be regulated. and those things they look at and say do not need to be regulated they say nothing about. those things that may need to be regulated but they decided not to they also record.

    Things such as water. soapy water and powdered sugar I suspect will never come to their attention. Things such as OA that have been used and are currently used in pesticides they do look at. and they then render a decision in regard to it. In truth they probably have no interest in evaluating anything that is not submitted for evaluation. And since OA is an ingredient in products that have been submitted they have looked at it.

    You will never find an approval for use of anything. They are not in the business of approving anything. they are regulating those things they determine need to be regulated. That distinction is important.

    So no those reason woudl not be good enough reason because they do not in fact even exist. OA has been evaluated and the applicable regulation is in place. and it is

    So is no restriction up to a certain amount (2 lbs per acre) good enough reason for me to use it? yep.

    Still nobody has been able to show where use of OA on beehives is prohibited or has been prosecuted.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    > Where, anywhere in the document does it state this ....

    You can refer back to my post #63 for my explanation of the inert references for OA in those EPA documents.


    When reading those EPA documents linked in above posts, it helps to understand that a substance, in this particular case oxalic acid, can be inert in one pesticide formulation and an active ingredient in a different formulation. That is touched on in the section titled "Use Summary:" in the first EPA document DY linked earlier, and linked again here.

    In the case of OA vaporization, there is only one ingredient in the pesticide, and OA would be the active ingredient if it was a registered pesticide. In the case of OA dribble, OA would still be the active ingredient, but there would also be inert ingredients of sugar and water. In the "calcium chelating hard water inhibitor" referred to in the "Use Summary", (linked EPA document - bottom of page 1) oxalic acid is being use to neutralize the negative consequences of "hard water", and is not the active ingredient in the pesticide. In that situation, the oxalic acid is considered INERT, but that does not mean that OA is always inert.




    Oh my!!
    Too much coffee, or not enough?




    Graham, try reading it again. Possibly with a bit more understanding of what you are reading. document one determines OA as an inert ingredient.

    for your benefit an inert ingredient specifically when applied to pesticides is:

    The Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act divides the ingredients in pesticides into two groups: active and inert. An inert chemical, under this context, is one that does not have a toxic effect on the species the pesticide is meant to combat, but that does not rule out that it may still have a biological activity on other species, including being toxic to humans. Solvents, propellents, preservatives, among others, are thus considered "inert ingredients"[1] in pesticides


    In document one it is declared Inert (not toxic) and is then then passed on to the inert ingredient branch for evaluation. The inert ingredient branch (document starting on page three) then rendered its regulation. which is none up to an application of as much as 2 lbs per acre. You have to be able to understand the documents to be able to follow the trail. I am obviously attempting to give the highlights here. You either genuinely are missing the trail or are attempting to be disruptive. I have already stated what I believe on that issue.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    for your benefit an inert ingredient specifically when applied to pesticides is:

    The Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act divides the ingredients in pesticides into two groups: active and inert. An inert chemical, under this context, is one that does not have a toxic effect on the species the pesticide is meant to combat, but that does not rule out that it may still have a biological activity on other species, including being toxic to humans. Solvents, propellents, preservatives, among others, are thus considered "inert ingredients"[1] in pesticides
    I agree with your quote from the FIFRA document. But note the part above that I highlighted. From that highlighted phrase, it SHOULD be CLEAR that INERT status of a given ingredient depends on the particular pest the pesticide is targeting.


    When oxalic acid is the active ingredient in a pesticide - such as OA vaporization or dribble, it is not exempt and is subject to EPA regulation. When oxalic acid is merely used to deal with 'hard water' and does not target any pest, then it is an inert ingredient in a pesticide that has some other active ingredient..
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Graham, Yet the document being discussed approves application to Agricultural Commodities after harvest. do they think those will not be eaten?

    Also notice the expansion on your highlighted portion. they recognize that the same ingredient may be toxic to other organisms including humans. In the case of OA this would have been considered evaluated and the regulation determined.

    So at this point you can even claim that OA is poisonous to humans Okay that does not change the regulation. You may think that the inert ingredient branch is not aware of this fact Okay inform them and see it if changes there regulation determination. I suspect that even if it is toxic to humans they will say yeah we know. And we still choose not to regulate its use.

    I woudl suspect that the inert ingredient branch exists specifically for this purpose of looking at what other things it may harm. The first evaluation simply determines it is not toxic to the target organism. it then goes to other to do more thorough evaluations. Now that is speculation on my part.

    In regard to mites specifically. It is my understanding that OA is not toxic to mites, it does not poison them. it causes a physical injury to them that is fatal. This is not toxic so it is in fact inert even in regard to mites in a honey bee colony. So it does not crate an exception to the stated considerations and evaluation presented in these documents.

    No they do not specifically say it is okay to use OA on beehives but notice it does not say it is okay to use it specifically on anything it says it is okay to apply it at a rate up to 2 lbs per acre for agricultural commodities. I doubt it will be some revelation to them to find out bees and honey are agricultural commodities.

    Just because you and many other assume some ingredient should be regulated does not mean it is determined to need to be regulated. I realize you think your rational and assumptions are better than their evaluation, I disagree. It was looked at and determined that it does not need to be regulated. Specifically in regard to use as a pesticide. Specifically being applied to agricultural products.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post


    When oxalic acid is the active ingredient in a pesticide - such as OA vaporization or dribble, it is not exempt and is subject to EPA regulation.

    Please explain how the method of application causes the OA to become toxic. SInce inert in regard to pesticides means it is not toxic. yo uare now claiming that it has soemhowe become toxic.

    It is my understanding that is not how OA works on mites either with dribble or Vaporization OA does not poison the mites. it causes a physical injury to them that is lethal. That is not an indication of toxicity.

    Still I am wondering just how OA became more poisonous when applied to a different target? Or is applied by a different application. When it was never poisonous in the first place.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    So at this point you can even claim that OA is poisonous to humans Okay that does not change the regulation.

    I made no such claim.


    Since you are still having difficulty with the concept of a given pesticide ingredient being considered inert in one formulation and active in a different formulation, I suggest reading the entire EPA page at this link discussing INERT classifications:
    http://www.epa.gov/PR_Notices/pr97-6.html

    A relevant part of that page ...
    An active ingredient is one that prevents, destroys, repels or mitigates a pest, and each
    active ingredient must be identified by name on the label together with its percentage by weight. An inert ingredient is simply any ingredient in the product that is not pesticidally active.

    http://www.epa.gov/PR_Notices/pr97-6.html
    Clearly, by that explanation oxalic acid is an ACTIVE ingredient as a pesticide when targeting varroa. Inded, when using the OA vaporization method, oxalic acid is the ONLY ingredient, so it certainly cannot be classified as inert!

    Note the word "repels" as part of that definition. An active ingredient does not even have to kill, injure or damage a pest in any way to still be considered active. I am not defending that definition, simply pointing out what the laws/regulations mean.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    the question to me is why isn't everyone trickling not why isn't everyone vaporizing.
    trickling at the wrong time tends to hurt the bees. During a time of broodless is best, but conditons usually around those broodless times are harsh, the reason why the hive usually is broodless. If the bees injest the OA rather than distribute it around, it will scorch their stomach which cause problems. Vapourizing tends to side step that problem but the problem with vapourizing is it requires expensive equipment (commercial) and I have been told is very inconsistent. One more tool in our arsenal , yes, but that silver bullet, heck NO

    Canada has gone through the process of approving OA as a treatment on honeybee hives. It is used quite a bit up here. Why its not catching on? Apivar still kills mites here...
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Graham,

    So you thik that the EPA has determined that OA is Inert. Ignorant of the fact that it is used as the only ingredient when applied to beehives. So there fore it must be an active ingredient and the EPA must be wrong.

    If this is so at some point the EPA must have realized their error and corrected it. Can you find any document indicating that is so? Or they are still ignorant of their error and need to be informed of that. I will leave that up to you. let us know what they have to say.

    Now I work for the government and I know for a fact that this would not be the most ridiculous thing they have done. In fat it seems pretty normal to me. Being ridiculous does not change that it is the determination. Does it break my heart that they got it wrong. No it does not I don't think the government should be regulating it at all. As far as I am concerned they are a collection of idiots that could not manage to write directions to tying shoes.

    I do find it interesting that you will continue to make there conclusions make sense.

    So present a document that indicates they ever changed their determination in regard to OA. I know that yours or anyone elses rational would not be applicable. because the determination is not rational. It is what it is and it has been made. And what I have found clearly states that OA is not regulated. Ridiculous or not.

    Now I have shown documents where the EPA has determined OA to be an inert ingredient. You disagree. that does not matter. T Hey are the ones that make the determination. You can rant and rave and call them idiots all day long. they don't care. they still say OA is inert. Even if it is the only ingredient being used in a product it is still inert and it's regulation has been turned over to the branch that deals with inert ingredients.

    Now why woudl there even be an branch that deals with inert ingredients? because the EPA recognizes that even though an ingredient is not toxic to a target organism. it may be harmful to the environment or other organisms. So the very branch that is given the task of checking into these "Other potential harms" has in fact looked at OA and rendered their decision concerning it. They are not looking at OA as an ingredient among other ingredients. they are looking at OA all by itself. And they have determined that no regulation is necessary up to the limit they set. Now that you want to disagree once again does not change the fact that is their determination. they have determined it is inert and they have determined no regulations are required. period end of discussion. Your opinion changes neither.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Graham,

    So you thik that the EPA has determined that OA is Inert. Ignorant of the fact that it is used as the only ingredient when applied to beehives. So there fore it must be an active ingredient and the EPA must be wrong.


    Nowhere did I say that the "EPA has determined that OA is Inert".

    What I did say is that the inert/active status of a specific pesticide ingredient changes depending on the targeted pest.

    I have provided all the links and explanations appropriate to understand that concept. I can see that some people may not want to accept that idea, but that is the FIFRA law as it is currently written.


    The alternative is to adopt PLAN B ....
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    I did not have a lot of time to do a search. but I did search for OA as an active ingredient in Pesticides and came up with nothing not even from a site that is supposed to have information on any chemical used in pesticides as an active ingredient. As ar as i can tell nowhere is OA listed as an active ingredient.

    My understanding of how thois coudl be is.
    1. OA has not been evaluated when applied as a vapor to Honey Bee hives. (Not LIkley since such use is well known).
    2. that even though certain ingredient may repel or even be lethal to an organism. even a targeted organism. such as water being lethal to aphids. It is not active "Enough" to be considered Active. This only brings us back to my pint that not everything that will kill insects is considered a pesticide. it may well be it is also not considered an active ingredient. even on it's own water would not be considered an active pesticide ingredient. So where is the line between say water and DDT. DDT being listed as an active ingredient. I intentioanly used extremes in this case.

    From what I can find OA falls one the non active ingredient side of that line. Right along with water and a long list of thoer ingredients that woudl also fall on the non active side of the line.

    I did find one reference to OA as an active ingredient in regard to control of peach borers or something like that. Btu that reference woud be on parr with Grahams opinon that the ingredient is active becasue it is the only ingredient beig used. so it must be active.

    I disagree. It only means an inert, unregulated ingredient can control mites and not kill bees.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Well, that certainly makes the situation perfectly clear ..... ....
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    I think you guys make your own problems with all the back and for, filling up pages after pages. If you get your honey tested from the government and they find OA in you honey, how can they prove the acid is from an treatment and not natural?

    Would be different if you have a government regulated amount of OA in food, like beans, spinach or even rhubarb or all the other vegetables. Most of them contain more OA in a single meal you ever have in your hive during the whole year, whether treated with OA or not.

    OA is an natural ingredient in honey, sometimes more sometimes les, depends on the plants the bees collect the honey from. There is NO MRL on OA in food, the same with formic, menthol and thymol. It is always possible, that your untreated hives have more OA in honey than treated hives.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Show me where they have approved dusting with powdered sugar. but that argument is even getting tiring to me.
    Dusting with sugar is a mechanical treatment, not a chemical one. The sugar doesn't actually do anything to the mites.

    Still waiting to hear what's so special about oxalic acid that I should be using it, rather than other chemical treatments that also work just fine.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    Still waiting to hear what's so special about oxalic acid that I should be using it, rather than other chemical treatments that also work just fine.
    You shouldn't use it. It is a choice and you have made yours. Stick with it.
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  15. #95
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Maybe you should know your state laws before using anything in a beehive !!!!
    Of course this is just a suggestion and you may regret finding out the hard way. I do see there are a few people here who do not like doing their homework


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134
    Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA.
    http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    As I stated a loooong time ago in this thread the question to me is why isn't everyone trickling not why isn't everyone vaporizing.
    Jim,

    Every region is different, but in this area we usually experience peak mite numbers in our colonies in late August. Nectar is scarce and the brood nest has contracted to the lowest amount of brood of the active season.

    Starting in late August with 3 OA Vapor treatments, one week apart, most of the mites are eliminated from the colony. This gives the colony at least 2 full brood cycles during the fall flow period to build up a healthy bee population free of mites before winter brood shut down.

    If that same colony which had high mite counts in August was not treated until the winter broodless period with an OA dribble, most of the bees treated with dribble would already have been compromised by mite pressure. I would be treating a colony filled with weak or unhealthy bees that have been struggling for months with high numbers of mites.

    I think that's the main benefit to vaporizing over dribble. Perhaps using both methods would be the best approach. Knock down most of the mites in late Summer with OA Vapor treatments to give you a robust mite free colony going into Fall, then clean out the remaining mites with a single OA dribble treatment during the early Winter broodless period.
    To everything there is a season....

  17. #97

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Answer to the thread question: because dropping is as efficient and much simpler and faster, does not need any equipment.

    I used dropping for many years and made some research of it too.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim 134 View Post
    Maybe you should know your state laws before using anything in a beehive !!!!
    Of course this is just a suggestion and you may regret finding out the hard way. I do see there are a few people here who do not like doing their homework
    Ive done my homework, and I still choose to use OAV in my hives because it does work. Is it illegal, well, its not approved, but is it a huge enough problem that they are sending OAV police around to cite people?? Nope.

    Im not one of those people that live my life by everything the government says, if I was, I would live in a food grade plastic ball with super ultra-filtered oxygen pumped into it, because according to the government, the very air we breathe and the water we drink is not god for us. The funny thing is, we are all going to die someday, some sooner than others, and in ways different from others.

    I just read that Fumigilin-B is legal in the USA, but not legal in European countries because it can cause birth defects in mammals or something?? Hmmm.........yet OA is legal in Europe AND our neighbors to the north in Canada!!!

    The laws in the USA are not put forth to protect people, they are put forth to make certain companies rich!!!

    Case in point, Particulate traps for diesel trucks. To comply with California standards, one has to have a PT installed on their big rig, at the price of $15,000.........plus all the electricity it takes to clean one that isn't on the road 12 hours a day!! The one company I know that installs the PT is doing very well, infact they have to almost turn away business because they don't have the room to store the vehicles for service!!!

    So don't think for a moment that the government is looking out for you, and don't make me tell you that in order to keep a CDL in California you have to be as in shape as an Olympic athlete, and no, im not kidding.
    Coyote Creek Bees

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    To start with my intent is not to offend ANYONE! So all you guys just waiting to pounce on someone for daring to think different than you do please just chill. As for OA, I believe the operative words here are "not approved". That's not illegal! Putting cinnamon in your hives to help control ants is not approved, so is it illegal? Nope. I could go on but I won't. Let's just say each to their own & leave it at that.
    Beeman
    All things may be lawful; but not all things are advantagous.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeGhost View Post
    Im not one of those people that live my life by everything the government says....
    The laws in the USA are not put forth to protect people, they are put forth to make certain companies rich!!!
    Don't think for a moment that the government is looking out for you.
    Not trying to jump into this war of words on OA but the above qoute is the best thing I've read on this thread so far and agree whole heartedly with it with all things that pretain to government.

    Probably the only thing to do here is "Lets all agree to disagree!"

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