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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    I cannot copy and paste from teh document so I am retyping the quote here.

    Executive Summary (meaning a summurization of the entire document, its findings and it's conclusions)

    This report evaluates Oxalic Acid, A Pesticide Inert Ingredient. (note, this declares OA to be an inert ingredient. not that it is limited to or that it's use as an inert ingredient is subject to this exemption. It is exempt because it is considered an inert ingredient even if it is used in it's raw form)
    for which an exemption from the requirement of tolerances exists for it's residues when used in Pesticide formulations.

    If you read the entire document you find they exempt it because it's residues cause no harm. Still they put a limit on the volume or quantity of OA that is exempt. over that limit and it again may be subject to regulations.

    You could also argue that it is only exempt if used as a pesticide for crops. that is not what it is saying the document mentions many uses for OA including uses in medicine. Nowhere does it make an exception to this exemption for any of it's recognized uses.

    Basically if you went to the EPA and said. Hey that guy is using OA on his bees. they would say we don't care.

    Now I realize many think otherwise. What they do not seem to understand is I don't care what they think. Post documents supporting your argument. Show me on instance where anyone was even investigated for using OA on bees much less prosecuted for it. Show me one document that states it is illegal to use at all. Opinion is worthless misinformation and unreliable. I am certain the crystal balls of all those making their most rational guess is cracked. In other words I don't think for a moment all of you combined have enough intelligence to make an accurate guess at it. you want it to be illegal so you declare it illegal. and all you can offer to support that claim is what you think makes since.

    Oh no they regulate pesticides. so anything that is used to kill bugs must be a pesticide.

    Okay lets start a campaign to educate everyone on the legal ramifications of dusting bees with sugar. care to take up that argument? if it is in fact illegal to use OA to kill mites then it is just as illegal to use sugar. The only difference is that you think OA is more dangerous for whatever reasons you think that. Others say that sugar kills far more people than OA ever has or ever will. I think both sides are full of it.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Well sure Daniel. But sugar isn't being used as a pest control it is being used as a food, which eventually kills some people who get too much of it, making it a poison.

    I agree, every time someone brings up powdered sugar dusting for mite control I think DanielY should remind them that it is illegal to do so because it is an off label use of a product used as a pesticide.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Start on Page 3 and read under executive summary. if you also continue reading the document you will see that it is an exemption of OA up to a certain application limit of 2 lbs of OA per acre.
    Instead of starting on page 3, start reading on PAGE ONE! The entire document is about oxalic acid when used as an inert ingredient. For instance, the 'Subject' line states ...
    "SUBJECT: Oxalic Acid - Inert Reassessment (CAS Reg. No. 144-62-7)".

    Similarly, the 'Action' line is ...
    "Action: Reassessment of one inert ingredient exemption from the requirement of a tolerance. Current exemption to be maintained."

    Yes, the document uses the word 'exemption' in connection with oxalic acid, however it is clear that is all a reference to oxalic acid being used as an INERT ingredient in a pesticide with some other active ingredient.



    Personally, I think that vaporization of oxalic acid is likely to be the most benign (from the bees' perspective) of any effective varroa control. However, vaporization of hundreds or thousands of hives (commercial beekeeping operation) is too slow to be practical, and the oxalic acid dribble method is more practical on a large scale. However, the dribble method carries a higher risk for the bees' health if it is applied improperly. On the other hand, vaporization, when improperly done, carries a higher risk of health impact to the [human] beekeeper than does the dribble method.

    In a more perfect world, oxalic acid would be clearly stated as a legal varroa control under US law. But given the practical reality of how such things work in the current political/legal environment (follow the $$$ money), that has not happened.

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 06-21-2014 at 07:11 AM. Reason: add more
    Graham
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  4. #64
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Frankly I could care less what the EPA designation is, I just think it annoys a lot of people who are fundamentally opposed to mite treatments per se that there could be a compound this cheap, safe and effective available that has NEVER been found to contaminate any hive product nor has there ever been any sort of legal repercussion for anyone that has used it. I have discussed its use with any number of bee inspectors and I have yet to find one concerned about its use. Be opposed if you wish, I totally get that, but let's not equate folks who choose to use it as doing some sort of illegal activity when no one or nothing is harmed. If you are opposed to dribbling a couple of tablespoons of a mild OA solution on a bee hive are you also opposed to putting a handful of dried oxalis or spinach leaves in your bee smoker? Who is hurt by this?Doesn't criminal activity require a victim?
    The idea of fear that people using unapproved products would get in "legal trouble" is entirely an invention of proponents of the products. No, I'm not afraid that the chemical police are going to come and arrest me for using oxalic acid in my hives. I merely have questions that I would like to see resolved in a scientific and objective manner, and I'm not going to use the product until those concerns are satisfied. Once they are, I'll have no objection to using it.

    It makes no sense that beekeepers would be opposed to a cheap and functional product because it is cheap and functional; I don't understand what you're saying.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    I merely have questions that I would like to see resolved in a scientific and objective manner, and I'm not going to use the product until those concerns are satisfied. Once they are, I'll have no objection to using it.
    Most of the rest of the world has successfully used it for YEARS. The Europeans (and others) have studied it, reported on it and approved its use.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    Most of the rest of the world has successfully used it for YEARS. The Europeans (and others) have studied it, reported on it and approved its use.
    That's great, but I don't live in Europe and nor would any colonies I keep.

    I'm sure it will only be a matter of time; just like with formic acid. In the meantime there's half a dozen different available mite control treatments and mechanisms to tide us over. Oxalic acid doesn't appear to be all that different from them, inasmuch as the hive has to be treated at least yearly just like with any other method; and despite "YEARS" of "successful" use Europe has not managed to eradicate varroa; so I'm not sure what the dire, urgent rush is for what seems to be just another mite treatment. It'll come soon enough.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    A. Who is rushing? What is being discussed is its use, currently.
    B. When have we ever eradicated anything? Use of mite control mediums is not to eradicate, but to knock down numbers to a tolerable level.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    A. Who is rushing? What is being discussed is its use, currently.
    B. When have we ever eradicated anything? Use of mite control mediums is not to eradicate, but to knock down numbers to a tolerable level.
    The thread is about why it's not being used by people who aren't using it; both the title and the OP are asking non-users to explain themselves. Given that multiple approved mite treatments already exist which do the same job that oxalic acid is supposed to be doing, I'm questioning why I should be excited enough about this treatment to go ahead and use it despite its not having been approved or evaluated scientifically in the US (since that reason for not using it appears to not be a "good enough" reason in some folks' opinion).
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    I don't think OA works the same as other miticides. You shouldn't use it until you see the benefit. It is beneficial, it works well. I don't see mites building a resistance to it like they have other materials. That's my opinion.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I don't think OA works the same as other miticides. You shouldn't use it until you see the benefit. It is beneficial, it works well. I don't see mites building a resistance to it like they have other materials. That's my opinion.
    It's also cheaper than any miticide that works.
    Dan Boylan, At it since 2007 in Pa Zone 6B, 13 hives, 7 nucs, treat when needed.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    As inexpensive as it is, if it worked half as well as it does I bet a lot of commercial beekeepers would still use it. For the same reason Tactik is used.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    It's major downside is that it only kill the mites on the bees and not the ones on brood. It only works for the ten minutes the vapors are moving around the hive, if you are vaporizing. It also only kills the mites on bees in the hive at that time. This is why many recommend that you use it when brood is low, and most are home. I still think it's a great treatment for heading into winter if you have a mite issue. I takes time. I can do it with my hives, but the time involved would be a burden for commercial guys ( I think, but I'm not one). I wouldn't want to spend 12 minutes a hive if I had 10,000 hives.
    Dan Boylan, At it since 2007 in Pa Zone 6B, 13 hives, 7 nucs, treat when needed.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by DPBsbees View Post
    It's major downside is that it only kill the mites on the bees and not the ones on brood. It only works for the ten minutes the vapors are moving around the hive, if you are vaporizing. It also only kills the mites on bees in the hive at that time. This is why many recommend that you use it when brood is low, and most are home. I still think it's a great treatment for heading into winter if you have a mite issue. I takes time. I can do it with my hives, but the time involved would be a burden for commercial guys ( I think, but I'm not one). I wouldn't want to spend 12 minutes a hive if I had 10,000 hives.
    Good summary. It's no panacea but it is an excellent tool for greatly reducing mite numbers to near zero either in the late fall, early spring or after a brood break. As I stated a loooong time ago in this thread the question to me is why isn't everyone trickling not why isn't everyone vaporizing.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    IPM anyone? Like Jim writes, "it is an excellent tool". One of the tools one uses in the control of the target pest, used at the right time of year. A device. Use one miticide, say Apivar, in the Spring, to knock down the mite numbers then so their numbers aren't overwhelming come the peak of the annual varroa mite cycle. Then, when the last honey supers come off, hit them w/ Apiguard, September or October around here. Then ship hives South for the Winter in November when queens in the North have cut back on laying eggs and go through the hives once more dribbling OA to knock down the Adult mites again.

    Other types of controls, like MAQS or other forms of control, can be plugged into the rotation where I wrote Apivar and Apiguard. The idea is not to use the same stuff twice in one annual cycle so as not to promote resistance to one material.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    I've always been a fan of IPM. Sometimes, I think we project too much into our keeping efforts. When we get an infection, we tend to take one type of pill and it goes away. We're accustomed to a direct cause and effect. As mentioned earlier in this thread, it's not about killing all the mites, it's about keeping them to a tolerable level. I'll save one shot remedies for the bears.
    Last edited by Ravenseye; 06-22-2014 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Spelling
    "My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Instead of starting on page 3, start reading on PAGE ONE! The entire document is about oxalic acid when used as an inert ingredient. For instance, the 'Subject' line states ...
    "SUBJECT: Oxalic Acid - Inert Reassessment (CAS Reg. No. 144-62-7)".

    Similarly, the 'Action' line is ...
    "Action: Reassessment of one inert ingredient exemption from the requirement of a tolerance. Current exemption to be maintained."

    Yes, the document uses the word 'exemption' in connection with oxalic acid, however it is clear that is all a reference to oxalic acid being used as an INERT ingredient in a pesticide with some other active ingredient.



    Personally, I think that vaporization of oxalic acid is likely to be the most benign (from the bees' perspective) of any effective varroa control. However, vaporization of hundreds or thousands of hives (commercial beekeeping operation) is too slow to be practical, and the oxalic acid dribble method is more practical on a large scale. However, the dribble method carries a higher risk for the bees' health if it is applied improperly. On the other hand, vaporization, when improperly done, carries a higher risk of health impact to the [human] beekeeper than does the dribble method.

    In a more perfect world, oxalic acid would be clearly stated as a legal varroa control under US law. But given the practical reality of how such things work in the current political/legal environment (follow the $$$ money), that has not happened.

    .
    Oxalic Acid is Inert. It cannot be used as any other sort of ingredient. So your "AS AN" is miss leading and inaccurate. Such as, Used AS AN Inert ingredient. Correctly and accurate phrased would be. Oxalic Acid IS AN Inert ingredient. This would explain why it is evaluated as an inert, and not as an active or any type of ingredient. IT is not used as an oxidizer, reagent, catalyist or any other sort of ingredient and is not evaluated as such.

    I woudl not be connearly as concerned I beleived you where just not aware of these deatils. My problem is I thik you are perfectly aware of them and intentional deceprive in your presentation

    Once again I understand your opinion. You seem to fail to understand I find your opinion worthless. Please provide the documents you offered to present indicating anyone being prosecuted or indicating it is illegal to use OA in a hive. That request is not met by siting prosecution for the use of some other product or chemical other than OA. We are not discussing the use of other chemicals.

    Why would I tell people something is illegal when I clearly don't think it is? Are you even paying attention to this conversation? You are the one that thinks adding things to hives that are not an approved pesticide when they are being used to kill mites is illegal. You warn them. That you have to hide behind a lie about what you are really doing to avoid the law. it simply indicates that I am right and you think I am. So call it feeding if you like. that is nothing but a lie that you realize you need to tell to do something you know you shouldn't.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    I woudl not be connearly as concerned I beleived you where just not aware of these deatils. My problem is I thik you are perfectly aware of them and intentional deceprive in your presentation.

    Once again I understand your opinion. You seem to fail to understand I find your opinion worthless.



    I didn't quote DY's entire post - anyone who wants to can go read the entire diatribe in post #76.


    It wasn't me that offered to provide any documents regarding prosecution - I didn't even mention the subject. My point was simply that the EPA documents that DY linked did NOT say that oxalic acid was exempt from regulation as a pesticide. That EPA document in its entirety discussed oxalic acid WHEN USED AS AN INERT INGREDIENT as a component of a pesticide that has some other active ingredient.

    Oxalic Acid is Inert. It cannot be used as any other sort of ingredient.
    Completely wrong. Of course oxalic acid can be a pesticide all by itself. It was at one time even registered as an approved pesticide. DY himself even linked to that EPA registration document in post #51. While the registration has since expired for non-payment of fees, that does not somehow magically make oxalic acid no longer an active ingredient when used as a pesticide.

    As I said earlier, I think oxalic acid is one of the least harmful varroa controls that are actually effective. Anyone who wants to use it should be able to. The fact that OA is not registered as a varroa control isn't something that would stop me from using it if/when I am in a situation where I think it would be a benefit to my hives.

    But anyone that chooses to use OA should at least understand its status as an unregistered varroa pesticide. Sticking one's head in the sand doesn't change anything!
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post

    [/I]Yes, the document uses the word 'exemption' in connection with oxalic acid, however it is clear that is all a reference to oxalic acid being used as an INERT ingredient in a pesticide with some other active ingredient.


    .
    Where, anywhere in the document does it state this. I clearly see where it states that in it's current uses it is used as an inert ingredient. that would be in the present products it is used in. but the exemption is not limited to it being an inert ingredient. OA is exempt up to an application rate of 2 lbs per acre. And that is clearly what it says and how it is phrased. You have to add your words to make your claim it is not anything they say.

    I say start at page 3 because that is where the exemption is declared. starting from the beginning you are reading the history and known uses of OA in various products. as well as an explanation of why an evaluation is even being made.

    You then claim that this explanation of its history and use is now conditions applied to it's exemption. It is no such thing. Is is a record of factors that where considered in giving the exemption. Basically they are saying that they already know OA is used for this that and the other thing. And they still give it an exemption.

    At most you can say. well they do not indicate that they know it is being vaporized in beehives to kill mites. Okay so inform them. see if they change their mind and decide this suddenly causes OA to be some substance that now requires regulation. Do you really think they are going to be surprised that OA can be heated and vaporized and that somehow they will be caught off guard as to the environmental hazard that now poses? If yo I highly suggest you take action. that is what they and the process is their for. Of course don't be surprised if the process is not exactly what you might expect.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Actually Graham. page one of document one that I linked to states subject as.

    Inert reassessment- Oxalic Acid (CAS Reg. No 144-62-7)

    Frankly I highly doubt you are qualified to interpreter that much of the document.

    Page three which is what i was referring to is a completely different document. That would be why I directed attention to it. so if you want to argue some other document I would l suggest you establish that as the document being discussed and not attempt to be deceptive in your tactics. In fact if your opinion is correct why would you need the added advantage of deception to make it seem accurate? Are you possible more concerned with looking right than you are at accurately information others? I understand that people can simply be mistaken. I do not believe this is remotely true in this case given your past behavior and how you build up evidence for your twisted opinions.

    So once again referring to page 3 a seperate document. subject being

    Reassesment of One Exemption from the Requiremnt of a Tolerance for Oxalic Acid.

    Further this assesment was made by the Inert Ingredient Assessment Branch (IIAP)

    Which is the branch that is stated will regulate Oxalic Acid in the first document.

    So once again these documents are not referring to regulation of OA when used as an inert ingredient. it is declaring OA an inert ingredient. It then renders a decision in regard to regulation.

    And that decisions is found in summary on page three as I directed and posted earlier. Under Executive Summary.

    Now I am not able to copy and paste from this document for unknown to me reasons so i am not going to set here and type it word for word. But for the purpose of promoting accurate information I will take the time to do so here. Unlike you who attempts to sight a seperate document to make an argument. I believe for no other reason than to argue and cause disruption.

    Quote"
    This document evaluates Oxalic Acid, a pesticide inert ingredient for which an exemption from the requirement of tolerance of its residues exists when used in pesticide formulations. (with no more Oxalic acid than is needed to chelate calcium. and no more than 2 lbs per acre) applied to growing crops or Raw agricultural commodities after harvest under 40 CFR 180.910

    Now you can look up CFR 180.910 for yourself I have seen enough to consider OA something the EPA is not real concerned about.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    > Where, anywhere in the document does it state this ....

    You can refer back to my post #63 for my explanation of the inert references for OA in those EPA documents.


    When reading those EPA documents linked in above posts, it helps to understand that a substance, in this particular case oxalic acid, can be inert in one pesticide formulation and an active ingredient in a different formulation. That is touched on in the section titled "Use Summary:" in the first EPA document DY linked earlier, and linked again here.

    In the case of OA vaporization, there is only one ingredient in the pesticide, and OA would be the active ingredient if it was a registered pesticide. In the case of OA dribble, OA would still be the active ingredient, but there would also be inert ingredients of sugar and water. In the "calcium chelating hard water inhibitor" referred to in the "Use Summary", (linked EPA document - bottom of page 1) oxalic acid is being use to neutralize the negative consequences of "hard water", and is not the active ingredient in the pesticide. In that situation, the oxalic acid is considered INERT, but that does not mean that OA is always inert.



    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    I understand that people can simply be mistaken. I do not believe this is remotely true in this case given your past behavior and how you build up evidence for your twisted opinions.

    Oh my!!
    Too much coffee, or not enough?




    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

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