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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley Craig View Post
    .


    That very well could be, but it is my understanding (and I could be wrong ) that it would only apply to pesticides marketed as such it is also my understanding that that OA is marketed as wood bleach and is mot listed as a pesticide so it would not be covered by that act and if it was is the case it would also be illegial to use soapy water to kill bugs or a magnifying glass to fry ants
    I obtained a license to apply pesticides as part of my job at Cornell University. This was required because I was 1) applying legal pesticides to bees at the University and 2) because I was at an educational institution. The laws vary from state to state, but basically a pesticide is anything you use to kill pests. So, yes, soapy water would be considered a pesticide under that definition. However, there is another aspect to this: no one would be cited for using soapy water as there is no danger involved.

    The danger is when people used untested chemicals for untested purposes. This can lead to injury and death, under certain circumstances. Obviously not soapy water, but there are countless examples. That's why these laws are written. Additionally, if you are producing a food product (honey) it behooves you to follow the law even if it seems stupid, to protect yourself and your customers.

    For example, if you pour oxalic acid on your bees, are you sure somebody eating the honey won't get hurt from residual acid? Or crude thymol? That's why carbolic acid is no longer approved for taking honey off, too much would wind up in the honey. But I know lots of beekeeper who still use it. A lot of beekeepers are scofflaws. Too bad, because that can give honey in general a bad name.
    Last edited by peterloringborst; 06-14-2014 at 04:40 PM. Reason: clarity

  2. #42
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    Casey, Il, USA
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    FWIW I don't use it so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it is interesting none the less. I read where it is approved for indoor use as a pesticide and as for disposal it breaks down when exposed to sewer water both aerobic and anaerobic in less than 24 hrs so poses no threat to the enviroment, so like soapy water it may be technically illegal, but I can't see it posing a threat. One of my favorite wild edibles lambsquarter is high in oxcalic acid and it has been consumed for centuries

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Just to broaden the subject a bit. If it is illegal to use home made concoctons as pesticides explain this.

    http://www.motherearthnews.com/organ...#axzz34hzpBMp7

    Not in searching for this I also found out that it is clearly and abundantly notes that it is illegal in the UK to make homemade pesticides. As far as I can tell it is not in the US or most other countries. In fact this article and many more like it make it clear it is not only legal it is common.

    I seem to recall someone mentioning the Garlic thing on this site a year or two ago.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Per the EPA, OA is no longer a pesticide. The company or companies that originally applied for it's use as a pesticide, let the application lapse.

    If I were a commercial beekeeper, I'd use the trickle method as vaporization in their environment just takes too long. As I hobbyist, working alone, I prefer the vaporization method.
    As far as safety, those who vaporize and follow the instructions on it's use and utilize safety precautions, will have not problem.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox Mite Killing
    OA Vaporizer "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  5. #45
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    Sep 2009
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    Millbury, MA, USA
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    I seem to recall someone mentioning the Garlic thing on this site a year or two ago.
    Dave Miksa uses a garlic preparation for mites.

  6. #46
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    Nov 2007
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    Chesterfield, NH
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    504

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Do you realize Adee honey farms use a unapproved chemical in their hives about 3 to 5 years ago and got fine about $13,000 for doing it.




    BEE HAPPY Jim 134
    Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA.
    http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

  7. #47
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    But it wasn't OA, it was an off label use of a registered pesticide, amitraz.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  8. #48
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    And Jim,
    OA is no longer a pesticide.............
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox Mite Killing
    OA Vaporizer "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim 134 View Post
    Do you realize Adee honey farms use a unapproved chemical in their hives about 3 to 5 years ago and got fine about $13,000 for doing it.




    BEE HAPPY Jim 134
    Yes I do, And as is mentioned above it was due to an off label use of a pesticide. OA is not a pesticide any more than powdered sugar is. so if you are correct everyone dusting their bees with powdered sugar is just as illegally applying a pesticide to their bees. It is being applied for the sole and direct purpose of killing mites. But it does not make it a pesticide. and applying OA to a hive for the specific purpose of killing mites does not make it a pesticide either. And just because you think OA is worse than powdered sugar (hydroxymethyloxolan) does not make you right. I say it is the same thing different names.
    Last edited by Daniel Y; 06-20-2014 at 08:41 PM.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  10. #50
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    Nov 2007
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    Chesterfield, NH
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    504

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Do you even know that the state laws are for beekeeping in the state where you live ???


    One thing I do know in the state where I live which is New Hampshire it is off label these laws have been changed just about a year ago if you would like I can look them up for you. I will try the last time I did about 3 months ago the website was down for repair.
    As far as a chemical company goes if it is not being used according to the label it is against the law.

    BEE HAPPY Jim 134
    Last edited by Jim 134; 06-20-2014 at 09:42 PM.
    Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA.
    http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Note the comment under executive summary for OA on this document.

    http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/inerts/oxalicacid.pdf

    I have another document I found that explains how this exemption came about.
    http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/fac...s/4070fact.pdf

    In short this document exempts OA from regulations regarding pesticides. As long as application does not exceed 2 lbs per acre. Note it not only refers to crop application but Raw Agricultural Products.
    Last edited by Daniel Y; 06-20-2014 at 10:51 PM.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  12. #52
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    The first EPA document linked in the post above (and relinked here) does not exempt oxalic acid from regulations regarding pesticides. It clearly references the use of oxalic acid when used as an INERT component of pesticides. Clearly using oxalic acid vaporization or dribble method in varroa control would not qualify oxalic acid as an inert ingredient.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  13. #53
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    Cleveland, OH, USA
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    The danger is when people used untested chemicals for untested purposes. This can lead to injury and death, under certain circumstances. Obviously not soapy water, but there are countless examples. That's why these laws are written. Additionally, if you are producing a food product (honey) it behooves you to follow the law even if it seems stupid, to protect yourself and your customers.
    Bottom line, for me. We're talking about a chemical I'm unfamiliar with. Once it becomes approved, that means scientific questions like contamination risk and maximum safe dosages have been studied and addressed in a standardized way.

    I'm not risking contaminating other people's food purely on some assurance from a guy down the road who swears it works. There's people who swear that little copper bracelets cure arthritis and they're wrong.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Yes I do, And as is mentioned above it was due to an off label use of a pesticide. OA is not a pesticide any more than powdered sugar is. so if you are correct everyone dusting their bees with powdered sugar is just as illegally applying a pesticide to their bees. It is being applied for the sole and direct purpose of killing mites. But it does not make it a pesticide. and applying OA to a hive for the specific purpose of killing mites does not make it a pesticide either. And just because you think OA is worse than powdered sugar (hydroxymethyloxolan) does not make you right. I say it is the same thing different names.
    Well now wait - maybe, maybe not. I could be wrong, but it's not my impression that the reason powdered sugar isn't considered a pesticide is because the sugar doesn't actually do anything to the mites, it just prompts grooming behavior in the bees who end up pulling the mites off of each other as they groom. Please correct me if my impression about the use of powdered sugar is incorrect.

    What is the exact mechanism by which the oxalic acid is supposed to eliminate mites? If the chemical itself is supposed to attack or affect the mites directly in some way, then yes it is most assuredly being used as a pesticide.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  15. #55
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Frankly I could care less what the EPA designation is, I just think it annoys a lot of people who are fundamentally opposed to mite treatments per se that there could be a compound this cheap, safe and effective available that has NEVER been found to contaminate any hive product nor has there ever been any sort of legal repercussion for anyone that has used it. I have discussed its use with any number of bee inspectors and I have yet to find one concerned about its use. Be opposed if you wish, I totally get that, but let's not equate folks who choose to use it as doing some sort of illegal activity when no one or nothing is harmed. If you are opposed to dribbling a couple of tablespoons of a mild OA solution on a bee hive are you also opposed to putting a handful of dried oxalis or spinach leaves in your bee smoker? Who is hurt by this?Doesn't criminal activity require a victim?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim 134 View Post
    Do you even know that the state laws are for beekeeping in the state where you live ???


    One thing I do know in the state where I live which is New Hampshire it is off label these laws have been changed just about a year ago if you would like I can look them up for you. I will try the last time I did about 3 months ago the website was down for repair.
    As far as a chemical company goes if it is not being used according to the label it is against the law.

    BEE HAPPY Jim 134
    And if there is no label describing its use as a pesticide is that against the law? If there is no label describing its use as a pesticide how can using it as a pesticide be off label?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  17. #57
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    I'm not risking contaminating other people's food purely on some assurance from a guy down the road who swears it works.
    Fine. No one will make you use it. OA is best used when all of the honey supers are off the hive and when using OA vapor when there is no brood, both of these situations meaning in the Fall. So, there is going to be three or four or six months before any honey production occurs again. Therefore, how is OA going to get into any harvested honey?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  18. #58
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Fine. No one will make you use it. OA is best used when all of the honey supers are off the hive and when using OA vapor when there is no brood, both of these situations meaning in the Fall. So, there is going to be three or four or six months before any honey production occurs again. Therefore, how is OA going to get into any harvested honey?
    since there is no label, what makes anyone think that it will only be used properly(not sure properly is the correct word) as there is no label to tell you how to use it properly
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Nothing. But that happens all the time w/ properly labeled pesticides all the time. People do what needs doing when they can, not always at the proper time. I saw some folks pruning apple trees when the trees were in full bloom one time. That didn't seem to me to be the proper time. It was when they could do it though. So I guess it was the proper time.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  20. #60
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    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    The first EPA document linked in the post above (and relinked here) does not exempt oxalic acid from regulations regarding pesticides. It clearly references the use of oxalic acid when used as an INERT component of pesticides. Clearly using oxalic acid vaporization or dribble method in varroa control would not qualify oxalic acid as an inert ingredient.
    Start on Page 3 and read under executive summary. if you also continue reading the document you will see that it is an exemption of OA up to a certain application limit of 2 lbs of OA per acre. Nowhere in that exemption does ti say it is exempt if used as an inert ingredient. It only recognizes that use as an inert ingredient is on the list of it's uses. Notice it is also recognized as a product used by veterinarians so they are hardly ignorant of it's other uses while making this exemption.

    Basically they are stating there known uses for the product so if later someone wants to come along and say. Hey they use it to gas mites on bees. they can look and say. nope we did not consider that application. Maybe we should reaccess.

    Given the descriptions they use and still exempt it from regulation I do not suspect use on Honey bees will prompt such an assessment.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

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