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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,082

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    My question is why isn't everyone trickling in the fall or 3 weeks after a brood break?
    Now you are getting a little too personal there Jim. lol

    Other friends who do also ask that question. Something for me to look into and get on board with. Folks I know w/ strong colonies when it comes to going to amonds mite treat when honey is stripped off in the fall and then trickle treat when they get the hives south for the winter.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bonn, Germany
    Posts
    118

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Harrison View Post
    ... from what i can tell. Very effective, cheap, don't have to worry with contamination of my honey or wax, doesn't kill bees, its simple and easy and mites dont become resistant to it. ...
    From what I can tell these presuppositions are not true.
    Cheers!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    1,920

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjj View Post
    From what I can tell these presuppositions are not true.
    Saying that is one thing, backing it up with research is another.......where is yours?
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Beer's Settlement, NY USA
    Posts
    1,306

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    I wrote:
    What evidence do you have of brood damage using either method?
    Response:
    There are questions about subtle effects, larval kill, and lasting suppression of brood development.
    Me: I know, that is my question. Again, no evidence is provided.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Beer's Settlement, NY USA
    Posts
    1,306

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Liebig (1998) quantified the impact on colonies when
    applying OA solutions with concentrations greater than 5% and described significant
    adult bee mortality, poor over-wintering ability, and impaired spring development.

    A single autumn spray treatment using a 3.0% OA sugar water solution (1:1
    by weight) and doses of 3-4 mL per comb side provided efficacies of 97.3 to 98.8%
    (Charrière et al. 2004, Imdorf et al. 1995). These doses were tolerated well as none of
    the experimental colonies lost their queen and adult bee mortality was not significantly
    increased.

    There are several accounts in the literature of
    increased adult bee mortality as a result of OA application within hives (Charrière and
    Imdorf 2002, Imdorf et al. 1998), suggesting that OA may not exhibit its lethal effect on
    honey bees until more than 24 h after exposure.

    I conclude that repeated applications of OA did not significantly reduce Varroa
    mite populations in honey bee colonies when brood was present. My results confirm the
    observations that OA is less effective when significant brood is present (Fuchs 1990,
    Gregorc 2001).
    Aliano, Nicholas, "An Investigation of Techniques for Using Oxalic Acid to Reduce Varroa Mite Populations in Honey Bee Colonies and Package Bees" (2008). Dissertations and Student Research in Entomology.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    High Springs, FL
    Posts
    77

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Thanks for the Gregorc reference, found the article here

    (http://www.apidologie.org/articles/a...04/gregorc.pdf)

    I'd love to read other studies related to vaporized oxalic acid treatments.

    The only reason oxalic acid isn't a legal miticide is there is no money in it for anyone. Are we really supposed to obey purely because it won't make someone rich?

    There are many things that are technically illegal, in my state cohabitation without being married and kissing my wifes breasts put me in the law breaker category...I'm an unrepentant serial offender....

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    My question is why isn't everyone trickling in the fall or 3 weeks after a brood break?
    Those things don't naturally occur here. I know how to create a brood break, but have no idea what Fall is!

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,290

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    >Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    1) You are trying to solve a problem I don't have.
    2) It will disrupt the microbes in the colony.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    1,920

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >
    2) It will disrupt the microbes in the colony.
    I'm sure it does, but I'm also quite sure that they (microbes) recover very quickly from how the hive responds after treatment...which is very good..
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    1,920

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    I wrote:
    Me: I know, that is my question. Again, no evidence is provided.
    More from Randy Oliver's site regarding dribbling of OA:
    Hatjina and Haristos (2005) is the only study I’ve (Randy Oliver) found that reports significant problems to brood development following OA dribble. The authors recommend against summer treatment. The study was performed in Greece, “during the summer, between honey flows.” A question that is begging to be answered is: whether OA efficacy or brood mortality is affected by the amount of nectar flow during treatment.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  11. #31
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    What, you guys have mite problems? = reason #2
    Dan

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Memphis, Tn
    Posts
    23

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Well I don't know about research on bee mortality, brood mortality using vaporized OA. What I do know is I treated my hive that had mites a little after thanksgiving and afterwards had a lot of dead mites and no dead bees. The treated hive survived winter and was able to build up rapidly this spring and swarmed twice in April. I've inspected brood last week and have not found any mites in the original hive or the swarm hives that came from the original treated hive. I am pretty sure the mites are harder on the hive than me treating a hive with vaporized OA. I do know if I was to decide to treat this fall it would be at a cost of a few cents and would be quick and easy.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Marietta, OH
    Posts
    132

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    It is not illegal to use OA just because it is not approved for that particular purpose. We do it all the time in medicine. We know things work, we have studies to back them up, but our burdensome regulatory process makes it cost prohibitive for a drug company to go back and seek new indications for medicines. A small company making Oxalic acid certainly would not have the upwards of a billion dollars needed to grease the palms through the regulatory process. Take Ambien ( a sleeping pill ) for example, it is indicated for "short term treatment of insomnia" generally up to 10 days. We all prescribe Ambien longer, we know it's safe and it works. The drug company is not going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to get an indication for "chronic insomnia treatment" when they have a limited patent time on a medicine. What they did was tweak the formulation, call in Ambien CR and this "new medicine" is indicated for "chronic insomnia." Physicians don't get put in jail for using regular Ambien for chronic insomnia (it's cheaper for the patient). The only time it comes into play is if a trial lawyer uses it to make you look like you don't know how to prescribe things to an uneducated jury. I would bet a huge percentage of anyone reading this is on a medication "off label" for something.
    I use OA off label. There's plenty of literature to support that it is safe and effective. No company is going to spend the millions to get the indication as a mite medication and subject themselves to the regulation of it. Especially when it is so cheap and so many companies make it.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,807

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    According to the illegal interpretation it would be illegal to water your lawn since doing so will surely kill insects making the water an insecticide that is not labeled for use as such.

    I have a different interpretation and that is any product that is packaged and market as an insecticide is required by law to have a label and instruction as to how to safely use it. and by law those instructions must be followed. Not everything that will kill bugs is considered an insecticide, marketed as such or regulated as such.

    I can think of many things used as an insecticide that are not marketed or labeled as such and no one makes a fuss about it. Tobacco leaves soaked in water is one example. used all the time, effective and unregulated.

    I think the entire illegal thing is a bunch of garbage. Maintained by those that have a financial issue in other more expensive forms of treatment.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjj View Post
    From what I can tell these presuppositions are not true.


    Here comes some practical experience from Europe.

    It is a cheap treatment, true. But it also is very time consuming, for example in comparison to dribbling. (At least if you do it right.) You need one minute for the device to heat the oxalic acid, four minutes for the acid to vaporize, another minute to let it cool down again a little before recharging the oxalic acid. You need to close up and open up each and every hive. I can do way more hives per hour when dribbling.

    It is not very safe for the user so more precautions have to be made.

    Oxalic acid does harm the guts of the honeybees and brood. Also it softens the chitin skin of the bees.

    The dribbled oxalic acid is already liquid and the drops do not wet the whole hive. While the vaporized crystals contaminate the complete hive. The crystals do not break down as fast as liquid oxalic acid does.

    When dribbling for winter treatment, you dribble only one time. While with vaporizing it needs at least two to three times.

    It is not as failsafe as you think. The oxalic acid must not be overheated. If the heat used is too high or too low, it doesn't kill mites properly. Ambient air temperature and humidity also makes the results vary. Winter cluster tightness, presence of brood and ventilating bees also are possible reasons for a fail.

    All in all vaporized oxalic acid is not as quick and dirty and not as failproof as I need it to be.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?


  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Oswego, NY
    Posts
    58

    Lightbulb Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    1) You are trying to solve a problem I don't have.
    2) It will disrupt the microbes in the colony.
    Michael, I realize this was some time ago but I am working on ways to fight the mite with no chemicals. I am wondering what ur take is on this treatment? I know u don't have the issue due to cell size but for us new beeks who do have and are so green its hard to keep putting money into saving a dying bee hive each year.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Casey, Il, USA
    Posts
    908

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    If you raise whitetail deer or even goats for that matter here in the US ALL medication / treatments have to be used off label, using stuff off label doesn't make it illegial unless there is some specific law preventing it specifically

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    5,630

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    > using stuff off label doesn't make it illegial unless there is some specific law preventing it specifically


    There is indeed a law regulating 'off label' use of pesticides, its called the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA), administered by the EPA.


    Under FIFRA, 'off label' use (using a product in a manner inconsistent with the product label) of pesticides is a violation of federal law. More on FIFRA here:
    http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/lfra.htm...odenticide Act


    Note that true 'medications' are not pesticides, but are drugs and instead fall under FDA (not EPA) regulations.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Casey, Il, USA
    Posts
    908

    Default Re: Why are beekeepers not all using vaporized oxalic acid to treat varroa mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    > ousing stuff off label doesn't make it illegial unless there is some specific law preventing it specifically


    There is indeed a law regulating 'off label' use of pesticides, its called the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA), administered by the EPA.


    Under FIFRA, 'off label' use (using a product in a manner inconsistent with the product label) of pesticides is a violation of federal law. More on FIFRA here:
    http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/lfra.htm...odenticide Act


    Note that true 'medications' are not pesticides, but are drugs and instead fall under FDA (not EPA) regulations.
    .


    That very well could be, but it is my understanding (and I could be wrong ) that it would only apply to pesticides marketed as such it is also my understanding that that OA is marketed as wood bleach and is mot listed as a pesticide so it would not be covered by that act and if it was is the case it would also be illegial to use soapy water to kill bugs or a magnifying glass to fry ants

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