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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Lake Worth, Florida, USA
    Posts
    126

    Default Re: Looking for raw TF propolis

    Hahahaha! Such a funny boy! If the world was a perfect place.....Sounds like somebody still needs a snack .
    South Florida, 7 hives, 1 nuc, no treatments, foundation free, slatted racks, bottom entrances, zone 10b

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Looking for raw TF propolis

    Quote Originally Posted by CessnaGirl View Post
    Here is Dr. Vetaley Stashenko video of his talk he gave our bee club - they just posted it. He is also a speaker at the Florida State Beekeeper's meeting in October 2014 in West Palm Beach. BTW, I asked him about the Brazilian propolis being good, thinking it was not temperate. He said it was temperate as it came from altitude, not from the rain forrest.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvk9av6ocvY#t=12
    Thanks for the link, I'll look at it when I have the time.

    That being said, the first article I cited named three kinds of propolis: poplar type, Brazilian green type, and Brazilian and Cuban red type. A list I'll presume non-exhaustive.

    And even if it were about climate, look it up, pick your source. Brazil is not temperate. It's tropical. It's not all rain forest, but it's still not temperate. Is he going to call Cuba temperate, too? I've looked at a bunch of maps to see one use the world "temperate" for any locale in Brazil, and have not found any.



    This guy's claiming something I can't see even merely hinted at anywhere else, and which is not in accordance with what others have said in peer-reviewed articles. I see absolutely no reason to believe this guy over the others. Vegetal origin of the propolis is what matters, not the climate it was collected it, even if vegetal cover depends among other things on climate. In the north, we have poplar type propolis. Not in Brazil. As far as I can tell, there aren't any poplars in South America. And if there is a species I didn't find, it's probably not Populus nigra, which seems to be the most important species for poplar propolis. If the bees collect the propolis from a completely different plant, where's the logic in claiming that it's the same because, hey, the temperatures are similar in some parts of the territory (maybe)?

    Not all propolis sources are of equal quality, but there's no magical line that seperates the "good" stuff from the "useless" stuff.
    www.apisrustica.com (French-only website) Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens / northern hygienic bees

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Lake Worth, Florida, USA
    Posts
    126

    Default Re: Looking for raw TF propolis

    Dominic, you are right. I went and asked at a board meeting for clarification of what the researchers' results were from their Florida findings. They were not Dr. Stashenko's findings, just reported from his dealings with the researchers. My understanding is the research is not published yet, it is ongoing right now. The bottom line was Florida's quality of plant life did not make for a good quality of propolis and they found a higher percentage of contaminates like window caulking, grease, and tar than any place else they had tested. They recommended not using it. They recommended using the temperate areas of the US for US propolis as it tested best.
    South Florida, 7 hives, 1 nuc, no treatments, foundation free, slatted racks, bottom entrances, zone 10b

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Looking for raw TF propolis

    Quote Originally Posted by CessnaGirl View Post
    Dominic, you are right. I went and asked at a board meeting for clarification of what the researchers' results were from their Florida findings. They were not Dr. Stashenko's findings, just reported from his dealings with the researchers. My understanding is the research is not published yet, it is ongoing right now. The bottom line was Florida's quality of plant life did not make for a good quality of propolis and they found a higher percentage of contaminates like window caulking, grease, and tar than any place else they had tested. They recommended not using it. They recommended using the temperate areas of the US for US propolis as it tested best.
    That's a much more nuanced and appreciable answer.
    www.apisrustica.com (French-only website) Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens / northern hygienic bees

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,496

    Default Looking for raw TF propolis

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    That's a much more nuanced and appreciable answer.
    Really? I am glad that you learn now that TF is not top frame. I am curious, how you imagine the "top frame"? Anyway, this thread make sense to me. In my country (Russia) people used propolis for thousand years as a medicine. I am using it a lot. I know how to distinguish good (from Russian prospective) propolis. It smells like spring time poplar buds ready to open. It has particular texture - grainy. It has particular softness ... In alcohol tincture it has specific smell (reminiscent of poplar buds). All these qualities I can not find in US propolis in SoCal. What people is selling there is just a "tar" ... I would not use it for medicinal purpose. In Europe, propolis respected pretty much as a powerful medicine and it is a poplar-type propolis. I do not think, that any other kind of propolis may be used as a substitute to poplar-type. The bottom line is - get poplar-type propolis for medicinal use.

    PS I would imagine that other propolises may have some use also, but it is a different story. My "medicinal propolis" comes from Russia.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Looking for raw TF propolis

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Really? I am glad that you learn now that TF is not top frame. I am curious, how you imagine the "top frame"? Anyway, this thread make sense to me. In my country (Russia) people used propolis for thousand years as a medicine. I am using it a lot. I know how to distinguish good (from Russian prospective) propolis. It smells like spring time poplar buds ready to open. It has particular texture - grainy. It has particular softness ... In alcohol tincture it has specific smell (reminiscent of poplar buds). All these qualities I can not find in US propolis in SoCal. What people is selling there is just a "tar" ... I would not use it for medicinal purpose. In Europe, propolis respected pretty much as a powerful medicine and it is a poplar-type propolis. I do not think, that any other kind of propolis may be used as a substitute to poplar-type. The bottom line is - get poplar-type propolis for medicinal use.

    PS I would imagine that other propolises may have some use also, but it is a different story. My "medicinal propolis" comes from Russia.
    The confusion you talk about is not mine, but someone else's.

    However, the rest of what you describe is my biggest beef with naturopathy. It's a whole lot of tradition and a whole little of science. "We've always used X for Y, so Y can be cured by X", or "We always valued A with B, so A without B isn't any good". It's based on logical fallacies. And a lot of it, if not most of it, doesn't stand up to rigorous clinical trials to perform any better than placebos. Heck, a whole bunch of the reputed medicinal values of plants is based on the doctrine of signatures, which is utter nonsense.

    Contamination is a factor I can readily accept for decrease of propolis quality, but I would find it rather surprising that contamination be dependent on latitude more than other variables, such as closeness to an urban area. I look forward to reading in greater details the results and methodology of the study that sparked this debate. Contamination aside, I'll require scientific studies to convince me of any significant differences in medicinal properties (and not solely in chemical composition) based on geographic origin, the biggest factor, in my eyes, being how the beekeeper harvests and processes his propolis more than where he lives.
    www.apisrustica.com (French-only website) Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens / northern hygienic bees

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Suffolk, NY, USA
    Posts
    569

    Default Re: Looking for raw TF propolis

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    That's basically my whole message. Propolis is transported on the bee's pollen baskets: do you need me to cite a study stating that the pollen basket cannot be used simultaneously to transport propolis and pollen? Much of that passage also includes a series of deductions. Should I cite Darwin in order to be able to suggest that natural evolution will tend to favor behaviors that increase fitness over behaviors that reduce it? ..................
    I do not need you to describe honey bee anatomy or brief me on C. Darwin.

    I would like to direct your attention to some recent work regarding many of the issues 'bantered' about in this tread.
    J Pharm Bioallied Sci. 2011 Oct-Dec; 3(4): 479–495.

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