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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    No, really. I don't get it at all. You've been at this as long as I have. You've obviously spent more time on BS, where a totally green newbee could pick up everything they need to know. You've had bees survive, treatment free, for quite a while but are afraid they'll drop dead without warning. You want to split, but don't care enough to spend the extra minute or two to be sure that both parts had the resources to make it.
    Or, maybe, you're just trolling us.
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
    You want to split, but don't care enough to spend the extra minute or two to be sure that both parts had the resources to make it.
    This is the fallacy. It is not an extra minute or two it is an extra hour or two per hive. I do not subscribe to the management of going into a hive every week and that surely is not a minute or two. Anyone with two or three years of experience with Italian bees knows that if you do not go in on a regular basis the bees will lock the frames up tighter than a drum. You might even break or damage frames trying to get them out. You certainly will agitate the bees pulling every frame. I choose not to do that. You don't have to choose what I choose. Don't try to make me choose what you choose. Beekeeping is not my life it never will be but it is such an easy thing to have bees. A cave man can do it.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Quite frankly Mark I do not expect anything, I don't shade the results of my activities and I publish the results to beesource as accurately as I can. What do you expect Mark? Do you expect I will quit?
    No, I don't expect you to quit. I'm sure there is some value in your sharing, if only as a caution to others on what not to do. I just don't know why you decry "the finger pointers"?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    This is the fallacy. It is not an extra minute or two it is an extra hour or two per hive. I do not subscribe to the management of going into a hive every week and that surely is not a minute or two. Anyone with two or three years of experience with Italian bees knows that if you do not go in on a regular basis the bees will lock the frames up tighter than a drum. You might even break or damage frames trying to get them out. You certainly will agitate the bees pulling every frame. I choose not to do that. You don't have to choose what I choose. Don't try to make me choose what you choose. Beekeeping is not my life it never will be but it is such an easy thing to have bees. A cave man can do it.
    I have been through all of my hives this past week pulling frames to check to see how well or whether the queen is doing her job. Didn't agitate any bees or break any frames.

    I don't see why you think you would need an hour to check some frames in each box to see if each box has what it needs to make a queen. It doesn't. But if it does you, I'd have to see it to see why.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    One side was dead and the other side doesn't look strong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    A cave man can do it.
    Should have had him help.
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    good one charlie
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Quite frankly Mark I do not expect anything, ...
    Then why did you split at all? Certainly you must have had some expectation of the possibility of two more colonies, didn't you? Or did you expect them not to go well?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #48
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    Default Walk away even did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    ... After revisiting Michael's site my splits would be considered even splits ...
    I think, there is inconsistency in naming. Rusty from Beesuite described "walk away split" as "even split" - split all resources equally and "walk away"
    http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-to-...alkaway-split/
    I tried "walk away even split" a few times without great success. In one occasion, bees did not want to equlibrate and eventually moved in the mother-hive Another time, bees (and resources) were split evenly, but mother hive lost its queen and another one did not make the queen mother-hive failed to create a new queen from new eggs and was combined with my own small swarm. Another hive made a new queen from new portion of eggs. All hives are doing very well now. I attribute the problem to the birds, who is dinning at my hives non-stop this year! What was happened with the queen from the mother-hive is a mystery to me. My conclusion is that on such small territory as mine and with such limited numbers of hives, I can not master "walk away even split" From another hand I am lucky with swarms - all my swarms were hived and did great. They have new happy owners now. My bees are healthy by my criteria and do not require the treatment. So far, we have no issues. I used to count varroa, but stop doing so this year, because bees are doing great with varroa amount they have. I am a hobbyist and practice minimal interference in beehive.
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    Last edited by cerezha; 06-08-2014 at 03:01 AM.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    One of my splits did not go well this year. The hives got over crowded this year before I split and I believe they were already into swarm prep. One side was dead and the other side doesn't look strong. The dead side was full of worms, not sure if they are wax moth or hive beetle. They are small so I am thinking wax moth. Fingers crossed on the other split but I might be too late on adding supers for that one too.
    Question. Why did you Post this?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I do not check for anything

    so the condition of the hive when I split will determine the success. if you split too early you will not have drones and if you split too late you will not have eggs and most likely the hive is in the swarm mode. I believe this was the case with this last failure.
    "I do not check for anything ..." Then that's most likely what you are going to get. You get out that which you put in. If you don't look for what you need to have a successful split why expect a successful split. And don't tell me you didn't expect anything. That's bogus. Otherwise why do anything?

    "if you split too early you will not have drones" If you split in May there are plenty of drones. If you looked in your hives and saw capped drone cells there are plenty of drones. But you have to look. You have to manipulate frames.

    "and if you split too late you will not have eggs" Huh? When is that? November? If you have no eggs you have no queen. If you have no eggs it doesn't matter what time of year it is you have other problems. Unless the colony is on the verge of swarming. In which case there are swarm cells in the hive you are about to split and that should work just fine.

    Part of the problem the way I see it, besides you not looking, not working your hive w/ intent, is that you think you can split a hive in two and have a chance of having two hives. That's wrong headed to begin with. You should not be splitting your hive, you should be splitting your colony. As we have talked about in the past, there is a difference between a colony of bees and the hive they occupy.

    If you split a two story hive into two equal parts all of the brood could easily be in one box. Whereas, if you equalize the colony into the two boxes which make up your hive, parsing the brood equally between the two boxes, then you have split the colony and have a chance of ending up w/ two colonies. If that is your intent.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Otherwise why do anything?
    You keep asking this and I already explained why? Apparently you don't like my answer.

    "and if you split too late you will not have eggs" Huh? When is that? November? If you have no eggs you have no queen. If you have no eggs it doesn't matter what time of year it is you have other problems. Unless the colony is on the verge of swarming.
    Now you are answering your own questions.
    In which case there are swarm cells in the hive you are about to split and that should work just fine.
    Maybe yes and maybe no. The queen cells have to go in the side that is queenless and they must not be damaged when placing boxes on top of each other. Swarm cell are likely to get damaged because the boxes are not placed on top of the box they came from.

    Part of the problem the way I see it, besides you not looking, not working your hive w/ intent, is that you think you can split a hive in two and have a chance of having two hives.
    I have done this more than once with good success.
    If you split a two story hive into two equal parts all of the brood could easily be in one box.
    It is not two boxes it is four and sometimes five. An overwintered colony that expands into 4 medium boxes will have brood and eggs in at least two boxes sometimes three. I have said this before, as with all things beekeeping timing is everything. I did not need more hives. My intent was to curb swarming and give the extras away.

    Mark, What is wrong headed to begin with is running all medium equipment. Myself and others like it even though it doesn't seem right to you.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Mark, What is wrong headed to begin with is running all medium equipment. Myself and others like it even though it doesn't seem right to you.
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I have no problem w/ beekeepers who keep bees in hives made up of all medium supers. Not the way I do it, but not a problem for me if you or anyone else does. I don't have any problems w/ TBH beekeeping either. Or skep beekeeping or Warre. I don't do it myself, but I don't do a lot of things. Some folks carry AK147s, or whatever they're called, to Arby's to get lunch. I don't and don't really understand why they do, but, as long as they behave themselves civilly I have no problem w/ that. So don't peg me as being against something unless I say so myself. And then be ready for me to change my mind about something I say I don't like.

    I bet u like mediums because they are easier on your back when you have to lift them. Right?

    By the way, it doesn't matter how many boxes your hive is, if you don't look on it as splitting the colony, only splitting the hive, the boxes, that is wrong headed. But, even doing something w/ bees in a wrong headed manner will result in success every now and then, despite one's efforts.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I bet u like mediums because they are easier on your back when you have to lift them. Right?
    Yes, and I like them because they have a distinct advantage when splitting by the box. I DO NOT recommend splitting by the box if you are using deep brood boxes. I know what you are saying when you say split the hive vs. split the colony. If I am going to split my goal is to split the colony not the hive. It just doesn't always work but it works better than you think. Because your thinking is with deep boxes.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    This is the fallacy. It is not an extra minute or two it is an extra hour or two per hive. I do not subscribe to the management of going into a hive every week and that surely is not a minute or two.
    Extra hour or two per hive really ?I'll Bet anyone I could do a walk away in less then 5 min.
    And have 2 hives with queens in 30 days.
    It's all about getting a good honey crop and GOOD hive management so you have healthy bee's .
    Why have bee's if your just letting them set there ? How much honey are you harvesting?
    And why would you give advice with your cave man beekeeping ways.
    I must say your threads are always entertaining
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 31 hives==== T{OAV}

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Well, kids. What have we learned today?
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK View Post
    I must say your threads are always entertaining
    In a head banging sort of way, Glock?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
    Well, kids. What have we learned today?
    We are here to learn? Oh my.

    I gotta split. Not my bees, going to SC again. So I will see y'all in a day or two. Carry on.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
    Well, kids. What have we learned today?
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    It just doesn't always work but it works better than you think.
    Usually, Russian Roulette come out in your favor?
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
    Well, kids. What have we learned today?

    I think we learned that being treatment-free does not equate to neglectful and ignorant bee having. Randy Oliver's excellent article, that blueridgebee posted, points this out well to all but those who imagine they know better.

    I think we learned that being treatment-free requires a greater degree of awareness to a hive's condition and some here can't be bothered with being aware of the condition of their hives.

    I think we learned that there are those whose mismanagement will kill bees, which they chalk up to the bees being unfit to live.

    I think we learned that extreme verbosity does not trump knowledge.

    Wayne
    Last edited by waynesgarden; 06-09-2014 at 07:55 AM.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Walk away did not go well

    Quote Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
    Usually, Russian Roulette come out in your favor?
    Depends on the numbers ...
    If you were to play Russian Roulette with 7 people using a six shooter and you were the first to pull the trigger the numbers are good for you.

    If you split a hive with 30,000 bees at the right time and you use some logic to your splitting your odds are pretty good. The failures are more to do with getting the virgin queen mated and back safe. Which are the same for any split making their own queen no matter how you do it.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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