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  1. #1
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    Default BIP partnership and testing breeders


    This is a shoot of freezing the brood. For some reason when I posted the pic the right side was cropped. We tested 29 breeder candidates. 6 or 7 had results like this at the 24 hour mark:


    There are a lot more pictures on our blog at our web site. Special thanks to Ellen and Dan and the Bee Informed Partnership. We will have the data on mite loads and Nosema in about a week. The Hyg test will definitely inform grafting choices this week. Nothing like immediately useful information. It will be interested to see how the mite loads correlate with the hygienic test results.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  2. #2
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    Ft. Collins, Colorado
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    Hey John,
    Nicely done. What are you doing or did do as far as the tests for mite loads?

    P.S. Both batches of queens looked great! Thanks for the help with our project.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    I usually do a sugar roll or alcohol wash. They took the samples in soapy water I believe. They are sending them the lab in Maryland. We also tested the VSH breeders I got from Dr Harbo. Of the 3, one came out 100% hyg, one about 50% or better, and one seemed like they didn't even notice the killed brood. The results on my breeders were similarly variable with about a quarter of them getting 100% or very nearly and then everything in between. These test should make grafting choices easier. I am excited to find out how mite loads correlate with the HYG test.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    JBJ - Thank you for posting these photos and starting this discussion. I'd love to see your mite count - to-% hygenic correlation chart.

    Does BIP have a website?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    Hygienic and Selection Report "Bee Informed Partnership:
    BeeInformed.org"

    Your Beekeeper ID Code = KK-OR



    Samples collected between 5/29/2014 - 5/31/2014

    Summary per apiary, during the above date range
    Yard Name "Varroa
    Average Mites/ 100 Bees" "Varroa
    Minimum - Maximum" "Nosema
    Average Millons of Spores / Bee" "Nosema
    Minimum - Maximium"
    Home 7.7 0.4 - 22.5 0.6 0.1 - 2.2

    Counts per colony, including previous records on the same colony
    Collection Date Yard Hive # Temperament Weight Color # Mites/Bees Z - Score Millons of Spores / Bee Z - score % Uncapping + Removing Z-score % Removed Z - Score
    5/30/2014 Home 1001 . 3 3.75 4.8 3.67 0.05 -0.98 62% -0.78 50% -0.64
    5/30/2014 Home 1002 . 2.5 3.5 0.4 -0.72 1.4 0.37 91% 0.53 77% 0.42
    5/30/2014 Home 1003 . . 3.25 12.2 11.09 0.85 -0.18 17% -2.79 10% -2.23
    5/30/2014 Home 1004 . 2.5 3.25 21.2 20.09 0.65 -0.38 95% 0.7 91% 0.96
    5/30/2014 Home 1005 . . 3 2.3 1.16 0.3 -0.73 100% 0.93 100% 1.31
    5/30/2014 Home 1006 . . 3.25 22.5 21.38 0.4 -0.63 54% -1.11 33% -1.33
    5/30/2014 Home 1007 . . 3.75 22.5 21.42 0.35 -0.68 73% -0.29 49% -0.7
    5/30/2014 Home 1008 . 3.5 . 4 2.87 0.15 -0.88 97% 0.81 97% 1.18
    5/30/2014 Home 1009 . 3 3.25 5.9 4.84 2.15 1.12 93% 0.6 85% 0.71
    5/30/2014 Home 1010 . 4 3.5 5.6 4.53 0.25 -0.78 43% -1.61 25% -1.62
    5/30/2014 Home 1011 . 3.5 3 3.6 2.54 0.35 -0.68 100% 0.93 99% 1.28
    5/30/2014 Home 1012 . 3.5 3.25 16.5 15.43 0.05 -0.98 56% -1.03 52% -0.59
    5/30/2014 Home 1013 . 3.5 3 1.4 0.32 1.15 0.12 84% 0.21 72% 0.23
    5/30/2014 Home 1014 . 3.5 3.25 2.4 1.26 0.05 -0.98 96% 0.77 74% 0.29
    5/30/2014 Home 1015 . 3 3.75 20.2 19.13 0.15 -0.88 98% 0.84 79% 0.47
    5/30/2014 Home 1016 . 3 3.5 5 3.91 1.6 0.57 51% -1.25 43% -0.93
    5/30/2014 Home 1017 . 3 3 2.2 1.08 1.25 0.22 90% 0.47 77% 0.39
    5/30/2014 Home 1018 . 3.5 3.25 1.4 0.27 1.15 0.12 62% -0.76 46% -0.83
    5/30/2014 Home 1019 . 3.5 3.75 9.2 8.07 0.05 -0.98 97% 0.82 74% 0.27
    5/30/2014 Home 1020 . 3 3 7.8 6.74 0.05 -0.98 83% 0.16 67% 0
    5/30/2014 Home 1021 . 2.5 3.25 3.1 2 0.85 -0.18 96% 0.76 85% 0.74
    5/30/2014 Home 1022 . 2.5 3.5 1.9 0.81 1 -0.03 41% -1.71 18% -1.91
    5/30/2014 Home 1023 . 2.5 3.25 1.8 0.7 0.2 -0.83 100% 0.93 99% 1.28
    5/30/2014 Home 1024 . 3 3 1.1 0.02 0.75 -0.28 83% 0.16 67% 0.02
    5/30/2014 Home 1025 . . 3.25 5.7 4.62 0.05 -0.98 93% 0.61 72% 0.21
    5/30/2014 Home 1026 . 3 3 7 5.92 0.15 -0.88 65% -0.64 43% -0.92
    5/30/2014 Home 1027 . 3.5 3.25 4.8 3.68 0.95 -0.08 96% 0.76 83% 0.66
    5/30/2014 Home 1028 . 4 3.75 11.6 10.51 0.05 -0.98 100% 0.93 100% 1.31
    5/30/2014 Home 1029 . . . 13.8 12.68 0.4 -0.63 81% 0.07 66% -0.04

    Key to the Bee Informed Partnership Hive Inspection Report
    Yard sample taken in
    Number given to hive body
    Ranked 1-3 with 1 being nice after tapping and waving hands, 2 is average, and 3 means aggressive
    Ranked 1-5 with 5 being heavy and 1 being light
    Ranked 1-5 with 5 being Russian dark, and 1 being Cordovan light
    Number of mites per 100 adult bees
    Millions of Nosema spores per bee from 100 bees (we cannot differentiate between N. ceranae and N. apis)
    The percent of dead pupae completely removed within 24 hours and the strictest measure of hygienic behavior.
    The percent of pupae uncapped and being removed is a more liberal measure.
    From our experience, the uncapped and partially removed brood will be completely* removed by 48 hours,
    so the second measure tells you how clean the test will be within a day.*

    "Statistical Description

    Z-Score:** This is a statistical measurement.* It represents the distance between a single data point and the population mean (average) in units of standard deviation or how far a single data point departs from the average of ALL data of those measurements.* For example, if you have a z score that is negative for Nosema spore or Varroa mite load, this is a desirable result as it tells you that your value for that colony fell below the average (less Nosema and Varroa are better).* But if you have a z score that is negative for hygienic behavior, this is would be an unsatisfactory result as it tells you that the colony exhibited less than average hygienic behavior for all colonies tested.

    Standard Deviation:* A measure of variance around the average. The larger the standard deviation value, the more variable the values in the data set."
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    That did not copy and paste very well. The spreadsheet it was copied from is way easier to read and anything above treatment threshold was is in red. Maybe I can post it as an image, but the data is there. There were two with 100% hygienic behavior, very low mites, and low Nosema. There are several other interesting candidates besides those two that are right on the cusp. We will be re-sampling and testing again in July.

    Lots of grafts coming from 1005 and 1023.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    JBJ - Thank you for posting these photos and starting this discussion. I'd love to see your mite count - to-% hygenic correlation chart.

    Does BIP have a website?
    There is no correlation between hygienic behavior and mite counts.... Its a different gene as far as I have been told.

    That said the BIP data is the best thing that has happened to our queen raising venture by far. Phil

  8. #8
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    I totally agree on BIP.

    In terms of VSH and just plain old HYG one would expect lower mite loads and our most hyg results did have some of the best mite numbers. Many different genes involved for sure but all taken all together grafting from one with naturally low mite loads and good hygienic results should be a plus. Number 1005 was kick butt for the almonds this winter.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  9. #9
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    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    Thanks for sharing.
    I couldn't see much on blog with mobile device. I'll try laptop.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    Maybe no correlation, but they sure survive better. My guess would be that Home 1005, 1011 and 1028 would have an easier time dealing with a varroa infection compared to 1003. Detection of mites may indeed be a different trait, but the high incidence of uncapping and removal MAY relate to drone removal with mites.

    JBJ - Could you give any details about the testing? It looks like you used white PVC pipe to contain the liquid refrigerant. Do you have to push them into the comb slightly? Was that liquid nitrogen? Did you have any special safety clothing or other implements? How long is the liquid applied?

    Also, any more info regarding BIP?

    Nosema apis and nosema ceranae are distinguishable at 400X magnification with a gut squish that shows both. A stain could be applied, making viewing easier. The nosema ceranae spores are much larger.

    Being that you are re-testing in another month or so, you may want to put disc tags on those queens, if you have not already.

    Again, thank you for the posts! Very helpful.
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 06-08-2014 at 07:33 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    http://beeinformed.org

    Totally slammed right now.... i will post more asap
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    BIG THANK YOU!!!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: BIP partnership and testing breeders

    Holy Cow!, Batman! Did I ever screw up!

    Nosema Apis spores tend to be slightly bigger, fatter, and more oval-shaped.

    Nosema ceranae spores tend to be slightly shorter, more slender, vary more in shape, often wedge-shaped, or bent.

    In either case, they are NOT that easy to distinguish! A gut squish test at 400 X magnification is correct.

    DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF THERE ARE ELECTRON MICROGRAPHS OF BOTH SPECIES? I'd love to see this posted.

    Thanks to Randy Oliver, who privately maintains www.scientificbeekeeping.com !!! Check out the article about Powdered Sugar Dusting - Does it really work? and read down to "Nosema Ceranae update" to see the microscope magnification photo.

    Unqualified plea - Randy maintains a fantastic website! Please donate to him!

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