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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Worth replicating? To what purpose?

    You feed them poisoned syrup. They eat it through winter and die.

    What is replication worthy about that?

    I could design and run such an experiment myself using any insecticide. WLC you want me to prove that CCD is caused by DDT? I can do it.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    It has nothing to do with CCD.

    We want to know why Honeybees were resistant to lethal doses of neonics, and exactly why they failed to overwinter.

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    > and exactly why they failed to overwinter

    Because they were poisoned? How many degrees does it take to see that?
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    > and exactly why they failed to overwinter

    Because they were poisoned? How many degrees does it take to see that?
    While Lu reported empty hives, the key issue is the 30% overwinter colony losses beekeepers have reported.

    It doesn't look like pesticide poisoning, but resembles CCD.

    That's the issue. No piles of dead bees.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It doesn't look like pesticide poisoning, but resembles CCD.

    That's the issue. No piles of dead bees.
    But ... but ... but you yourself just said it doesn't resemble CCD ....
    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It has nothing to do with CCD.
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    The mechanism by which delayed mortality occurs is the key.

    It needs to be investigated.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    They eat poisoned stores till they die. What's to investigate?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    The mechanism by which delayed mortality occurs is the key.
    They spend the winter eating the stored syrup/faux 'honey' that they put aside from the poisoned syrup you earlier fed them.

    The 'key' seems clear to me ....
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Bayer's Dr. Julian Little explains in plain english why the study was so deeply flawed: http://beecare.bayer.com/media-cente...neonicotinoids http://beecare.bayer.com/media-cente...neonicotinoids

    "Dosages are far removed from the reality in the field. The researchers were feeding honeybees with dose rates at 10, possibly nearer 100, times what they would normally encounter in the field. Not only were the doses really high, they were also given over 13 consecutive weeks far longer than the 1 to 3 week exposure seen following normal agricultural uses, explained Julian Little. And to try to link their results to CCD is frankly bizarre since the symptoms they describe in their study do not resemble CCD in the US in the slightest".

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Bluediamond:

    You hit on a key point: how pesticides are tested on Honeybees.

    Lu treated those bees with higher than field normal doses of the neonics, yet they didn't die immediately.

    Clearly, there's something wrong with how we test pesticides to determine their LD50/allowable field concentrations.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Perhaps Lu's control of measurement/dosage of the neonics was as sloppy as the rest of the study ...



    Clearly, there's something wrong
    Well, at least you got that part correct.
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    I'm pretty sure it has to do with what a colony does with a half gallon of syrup.

    There seems to be the assumption that the syrup is distributed evenly to each of the 60,000 assumed bees in the hive....spaced out over the amount of time between feedings evenly.

    This is not what happens...the syrup is probably consumed in less than 24 hours and much of it is likely stored.

    We have no accounting of the surplus.....colonies such as these would generally produce a surplus of honey or swarm during the season. Werevsypers places on these hives? Were broodframes spun out? The stored honey is clearly the mode of action (in the last study, the one dosed colony that survived was a small cluster on stores inside a feeder....that were stored before the dosing began).

    Without knowing what happened to the surplus (honey and/or bees ) and what was in the surplus, it is impossible to know what happened.
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    When we are talking about a billion dollar business nothing is going to be fair. That article is just another smoke screen.
    Which claim in the article do you challenge and consider to be a smoke screen?

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Bluediamond:

    You hit on a key point: how pesticides are tested on Honeybees.

    Lu treated those bees with higher than field normal doses of the neonics, yet they didn't die immediately.

    Clearly, there's something wrong with how we test pesticides to determine their LD50/allowable field concentrations.
    I don't get the logic here.

    It's true that field doses are much lower than LD50 when it comes to neonics. But why does this constitute a problem? It could be that farmers simply don't need anywhere near an LD50 level of pesticide saturation on their crops for it to be effective for their purposes.

    The federally-mandated maximum exposure limit for radiation workers is significantly lower than than the known lethal dose. Surely you don't expect them to allow people to walk around absorbing radiation that is just under that dosage?

    The same thing goes for insects. A sublethal dose of insecticide at this moment is sublethal, sure, but it could become a lethal dose if the bees eat that sublethal dose day after day. Let's say (purely making some numbers up for demonstration) that Insecticide A's lethal dose is 100ppm, and you begin feeding bees daily doses of 10ppm. Let's say that the bees' bodies metabolize the insecticide at a rate of 6ppm per day. That means that after the end of the day, a bee that was fed 10ppm will still have 4ppm of residue inside them. The next day you feed them 10ppm, but they'll actually then have 14ppm inside them. After another day, 6 more ppm is metabolized, leaving 8ppm inside them. Feed them another 10ppm, that gives them 18ppm - so the bees are actually carrying around almost double your intended dose, and that's only on the third day of the experiment.

    Let's see how this plays out:

    Day 1: 10-6=4
    Day 2: 4+10-6=8
    Day 3: 8+10-6=12
    Day 4: 12+10-6=16
    Day 5: 16+10-6=20 (After day 5, the bees will never have less than 2x your daily dose in them at any time)

    Day 15: 48+10-6=52 (After day 13, less than two weeks into the experiment, the bees will never have less than 5x your daily dose in them at any time)

    Day 27: 96+10-6=100 (Lethal dose)

    So with these numbers, it takes a couple of days shy of a month of eating the insecticide at 10% of the lethal dose, to achieve the lethal dose in all bees.

    Now again, these are made up numbers - however, the sole idea is to demonstrate the principle in action.

    Now, how do we come to the problem of the delayed reaction? If it only takes a month (in this case) to reach a lethal concentration, why didn't the bees die until winter?

    Question: you are a beekeeper, right?

    Bees don't eat nectar given the option. At the time that the poison was being fed to them, the bees were likely actually eating stored honey, and the poisoned nectar was simply brought back to the hive and deposited in the comb, minimizing the exposure to the bees. The poisoned nectar was dried per standard procedure, evaporating water (and causing the poison to become concentrated further in the meantime), and capped until needed. The bees died over winter likely because it was during winter that they opened and began feeding on the poisoned honey in earnest.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    O.K., I see that some of you think that insects have to actually digest neonic spiked syrup rather than simply ingest it.

    All that I can say is if they're moving the spiked syrup around the hive, they're exposed to the neonics.

    It should have killed them.

    If they make honey out of it, it should have killed them.

    Now if they then also eat the honey....

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    O.K., I see that some of you think that insects have to actually digest neonic spiked syrup rather than simply ingest it.

    All that I can say is if they're moving the spiked syrup around the hive, they're exposed to the neonics.

    It should have killed them.

    If they make honey out of it, it should have killed them.

    Now if they then also eat the honey....
    And so it did. It did kill them. I still don't see what the problem is.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Neonicotinoids are systemic, water soluble pesticides.

    As soon as the bees ingest the neonic, it will affect them because it's water soluble and systemic.

    So, it shouldn't take months for them to succumb.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Did you read the part of my post where I discuss humans and radiation exposure?

    There is a lethal dose. This lethal dose can be reached all at once, or can also be attained cumulatively after several separate exposures.

    The neonicotinoid experiment was similar. The dose given was sublethal for a single dose, but evidently after a long time of consuming it the bees attained the lethal dose cumulatively.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    The mechanism by which delayed mortality occurs is the key.

    It needs to be investigated.
    WLC, I have been thinking about the delayed mortality for a long time already. This is one theory that could exlain the mechanism of how neonics consumed in summer could cause CCD in winter:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...912#post896912

  20. #100
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    Feb 2012
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    I don't understand the focus of this study on CCD. CCD hit in 2006 and peaked 4 or 5 years ago. It's not what's currently killing the bee's these days.

    Given how CCD hit hard and then went away, I'd suspect that it was caused by a virus that bees quickly built up resistance too. My other theory is that 2006 was a year when the buildup of 1st generation mite control pesticides inside dark comb hit toxic levels for a lot of hives. Once cycling out old dark comb became a common practice and / or that many apiarists moved on to newer less-harsh forms of mite control, CCD began to diminish.

    Not sure we'll find the answer to the mystery but I just don't believe it to be neonic-related. It's been thoroughly tested and if it were the cause, CCD would still be ramping up as neonic pesticides continue to become more widely used and the bees would have probably died off by now.

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