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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    It is impossible to know if the beekeeper would notice anything. Certainly the write up makes it seem that all colonies looked the same.

    The problem is, anyone that had managed a number of hives knows that they don't all look the same. Generally one does a fair amount of management to keep colonies of equal strength.

    And again, are we really suppose to believe that strong full hives of 20 . that are fed weekly never try to swarm, never run out of room and need superstition or combs spun out.

    There simply isn't enough detail provided to make one think that the descriptions of the management is accurate.
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Never say never. We already know about neonic contaminated guttation drops and planter dust.

    It's possible to get high neonic contamination levels in a hive.

    No one has made the link between neonics and overwinter mortality till Lu did the studies.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Again the usda pollen survey.
    Imidacloprid 1 9.1 30.8 3.5-216
    That is a limit if detection of 1 ppb, found in 9.1% of the colonies surveyed, an average concentration of 30.8ppb with samples ranging from 3.5 to 216 ppb.
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that guttation is a real world problem. Planter start certainly is. Probably some specific crops are a problem....certainly a good percentage of the small sample in the usda survey are exposed, and bee bread with over 200 ppb is obviously a problem.
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that guttation is a real world problem.
    Seems like we would experience problems next to corn if it was. And the canola fields in Canada would really cause problems if the bees took the sap back to their hives. There's just no evidence that it is a problem.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that guttation is a real world problem.
    You are lucky enough to live in a country that has a lot of space and thus wilderness. So you do not see what we experience here. In our real world our bees cannot avoid pesticides by using other crops because there are no other pollen and nectar sources other than the poisoned ones. You told me you do not see any bees on corn while I was showing you pics with bees taking the guttation water and pollen of corn plants. I showed you lab results where pollen and honey was contaminated, your hive products do not. Obviously your world is not our world, sure, but that doesn't mean it is not real. Isn't it?!
    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    That is a limit if detection of 1 ppb,..
    Is that accurate enough?

    "We demonstrate, however, that a daily exposure 1/100th concentration of the LD50 significantly affects the mortality rate of N. ceranae-infected honeybees."
    from: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0021550

    1 ppb = 1 g/kg

    You also should know how fast the stuff breaks down. They found that bees poisoned with Imidacloprid, soon after they died, the Imidacloprid breaks down. After one hour (1 hr!) only 30 % of the Imidacloprid could be found. After 48 hours only 5 % of the Imidacloprid could be found. In the bees that died. (Study by Annely Brandt, Kirchhain, reported at: http://www.deutscherimkerbund.de/php...uell2014-2.pdf)

    So to find out the real amount of pesticide that poisoned your bees, you need to sample bees that are poisoned but still alive. You need to freeze those bees immediately.

    So it remains difficult to see the real world through lab findings of either bees or pollen or anything. When oldtimer beekeepers report there is something wrong with their bees you should better do not dismiss this too easily. The biggest problem for us folks, that struggle to keep them bees alive, are other beekeepers pointing at us. Naysayers and apologists. I know your intentions are good, but all the scepticism costs us other less lucky fellows a lot of time and hives.

    I am sure you would discuss the topic different if our troubles would be your troubles. I met a lot of sceptic beekeepers in the past, all denying that pesticides are causing trouble. They all became either very silent during the last decade or they became very loud - because of their losses.

    It all depends much on your location - especially when it comes to water contamination. If you got a lot of fresh water sources you do not see so much trouble.

    Bees are not dumb. If they can, they smell and avoid pesticides. If they are forced to consume pesticides, they get ill one way or the other.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Bernard, please do not imply what you cannot demonstrate.

    What data can you supply (private data or published reports) that shows bees picking up any/significant neonics in corn guttation. One where the corn plants are not in containers, where guttation is happening instead of being forced when other moisture isn't available.

    I think you are a smart guy, and I take data (and anecdotes) you provide seriously. If you have something more concrete I'd be very interested in hearing it.
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Even if my hypothesis about "bioaccumulation" in the brood comb is not accurate, I still think an overreliance on testing only properly administered "field level" neonic may be missing the point. Neonic insecticides are available both commercially and to the casual suburban insectophobe. Many of the beekeepers here are not pollinating commercial crops, but are dealing with a large area of suburbia in which people may or may not be applying these insecticides in the proper manner. Yes it is technically a crime to use these products in a manner not consistent with their labeling, but when was the last time you saw Joe Johnson from down the street being hauled away for failing to follow labeling instructions?
    My immediate neighbors know that I keep bees, and I would hope that they would be restrained in their use of potentially harmful insecticides, but the foraging range of my bees encompasses a great many homes, parks, and other managed areas that could have a wide variety of insecticide levels. Establishing that exposures in the range of about one order of magnitude below the LD50 causes CCD-like overwinter death of colonies is a worthy finding - and quite a different one from the hyper-controlled canola trial.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    I have some pictures showing honeybees collecting guttation water under field conditions. You can see this quite regularily. A well known German bees scientist looked into it (among others), some details he shows here in this document:

    http://www.bv-besigheim.de/mitgliede...2012_02_11.pdf (in German, with pictures and charts.)

    It says that the level of neonicotinoid pesticides in the guttation water in corn is critical for four weeks after the corn sprouted. (Seed coated with neonicotinoids.) Critical means it will have effects on the bees immediately. The studies also showed that the guttation water of corn (and canola and other crops) contain the neonicotinoids throughout the season, but in smaller doses.

    Corn is especially interesting as a water source, since the leaf pits provide guttation water all day long.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    I have some pictures showing honeybees collecting guttation water under field conditions. You can see this quite regularily. A well known German bees scientist looked into it (among others), some details he shows here in this document:

    http://www.bv-besigheim.de/mitgliede...2012_02_11.pdf (in German, with pictures and charts.)
    Seems to be several photos of the same bee at the same spot. One bee does not make a problem.

    Corn is especially interesting as a water source, since the leaf pits provide guttation water all day long.
    I don't believe the leaf pits are really guttation but accumulated rain water and dew. Has anyone every taken samples and analyzed them. Further, I don't see my bees in the cornfield next to me so I really doubt they are using it anyway.

    "We demonstrate, however, that a daily exposure 1/100th concentration of the LD50 significantly affects the mortality rate of N. ceranae-infected honeybees."
    from: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0021550
    I don't believe that fipronil is a neonic. I agree that it is a deadly poison for bees.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    From Randy Oliver's Scientific Beekeeping:

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/news-and-blogs-page/
    Last edited by Barry; 05-15-2014 at 05:18 PM. Reason: copyrighted material deleted

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    I have no idea as to why a study like Lus gets so much more attention.
    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    Lus papers become the darlings of advocacy groups to support their misguided agendas to ban a particular pesticide outright.
    You've already answered your 1st excellent statement fully with your 2nd excellent statement. The truth that many claim to be seeking is not what they are actually looking for.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by nschomer View Post
    Neonic insecticides are available both commercially and to the casual suburban insectophobe. Many of the beekeepers here are not pollinating commercial crops, but are dealing with a large area of suburbia in which people may or may not be applying these insecticides in the proper manner.
    Why should it matter if neonics in suburbia are sometimes misapplied? Honeybees are so abundant in the most urbanized area of the nation - Los Angeles- that pest control companies there advertise their swarm removal services: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK95K3aLwZ0 Also consider that the garden centers in suburbia do not stock enough neonics to treat even 1% of the flowering plants in any given area each year. So even if neonics are sometimes overapplied by home gardeners, only a vanishingly small percentage of bees are going to be exposed - far more bees in suburbia likely get killed everyday via collisions with cars and trucks.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by D Coates View Post
    You've already answered your 1st excellent statement fully with your 2nd excellent statement. The truth that many claim to be seeking is not what they are actually looking for.
    They're actually Randy Oliver's statements contained within his article. Proper quoting and attribution with appropriate links are important, especially in the context of a discussion like this.
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by D Coates View Post
    The truth that many claim to be seeking is not what they are actually looking for.
    Much wisdom in that statement also, and does not only apply to beekeepers.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    I don't think that there's a beekeeper anywhere in the world who has shown more bias against Dr. Lu's work than Randy.

    I certainly wouldn't give his opinions on the matter any weight.

    Once again, another mediocre study from Dr. Lu with an astonishing observation.

    Those bees should have been poisoned immediately, but they didn't succumb until they overwintered.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I don't think that there's a beekeeper anywhere in the world who has shown more bias against Dr. Lu's work than Randy.
    bias is the opposite of objectivity. i think you've got it backwards in this case wlc.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I certainly wouldn't give his opinions on the matter any weight.
    you don't have to, but these opinions are in line with those held many well respected bee scientists.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Once again, another mediocre study from Dr. Lu with an astonishing observation.

    Those bees should have been poisoned immediately, but they didn't succumb until they overwintered.
    agreed. perhaps they were storing the tainted syrup more than utilizing it at the time, and when field forage became unavailable it was all they had for food.

    deknow's points about management are right on the money.

    cam's point about calling this dwindling 'ccd' is also spot on.

    lu's statement from the study that his findings "reinforce the conclusion that sub-lethal exposure to neonicotinoids is likely the main culprit for the occurrence of CCD" is, well, ........

    shameful science no two ways about it.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Let's forget everything else except the delayed lethality observation for a moment.

    One interpretation could be that pesticides need to be tested for this type of effect before approval.

    Currently, that's not the case.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    the lethality is already known. my guess is that the delay was because the insecticide got concentrated as the syrup got processed and stored, and then became a problem as the bees started to consume it.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Newly published Harvard study on neonics

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Let's forget everything else except the delayed lethality observation for a moment. One interpretation could be that pesticides need to be tested for this type of effect before approval. Currently, that's not the case.
    How would such testing benefit bee health given that CCD doesn't hardly exist in the first place in the regions (e.g. Iowa, Illinois) where neonics are most intensively used (60-70% of the entire landmass of those states is covered with crops grown from neonic coated seed). And given that they only way Lu could demonstrate delayed lethality was by feeding the bees "levels of neonicotinoids greater than 10 times what they would normally encounter" http://bayercropscience.us/news/pres...vard-statement

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