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Newly published Harvard study on neonics

28K views 100 replies 22 participants last post by  Stromnessbees 
#1 ·
#29 ·
Also note that the issues that didn't pass the smell test the first time are repeated.

Strong hives early in the season, full of comb and bees and food are fed half a gallon of syrup every week, all summer (and had access to courage...they were free flying).

Where did the honey go? These bees never needed a super or any kind
of swarm management? If the bees died from contaminated stores, what honey was left and what was taken is important.

Deknow
 
#31 · (Edited)
Well that's interesting. His academic background doesn't indicate much work with bugs. Actually, I don't see anything related to insects.


https://www.linkedin.com/pub/alex-wu/35/614/477

Experience

Harvard School of Public Health
Doctoral Student
Harvard School of Public Health
August 2013 – Present (10 months)Boston

Epidemiologist, Environmental Epidemiology Program
Utah Department of Health
October 2011 – July 2013 (1 year 10 months)Greater Salt Lake City Area
Epidemiologist
• ATSDR's Partnership to Promote Localized Efforts to Reduce Environmental Exposure (APPLETREE) Program Assessor
• Data analysis management/analysis using SAS and ArcGIS

Epidemiologist
Utah Department of Health
October 2011 – December 2011 (3 months)Greater Salt Lake City Area
National Toxic Substance Incidents Program (NTSIP) Coordinator
• Coordinated community outreach program
• Data management/analysis using SAS and ArcGIS

Intern
Utah Department of Health
July 2011 – October 2011 (4 months)Greater Salt Lake City Area
Tobacco Prevention and Control Program
• Assist program epidemiologists with data collection, analysis, report preparation, data dissemination, and prepare required documents for legislative reports and documents. Data analysis using SPSS and SAS.


Intern
Utah Department of Health
April 2011 – June 2011 (3 months)Greater Salt Lake City Area
Cancer Control Program
• Collaborated with program members and developed and created a needs assessment survey to determine the unmet needs of cancer survivors
• Disseminated and collected surveys for the annual Utah Cancer Action Network (UCAN) Cancer Survivorship Conference

Lab Technician
Brigham Young University
January 2011 – June 2011 (6 months)Provo, Utah Area
Risk Management and Safety
• Researched, organized, and developed the revised Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry’s Chemical Hygiene Plan via collaborating with interdepartmental staff and faculty
• Edited Standard Operating Procedures and Laboratory Inspection Methods department and Risk Management use
• Conducted laboratory inspections, developed training materials, and prepared emergency response kits

Intern
World Health Organization
May 2010 – July 2010 (3 months)Geneva Area, Switzerland
Unit of Surveillance and Population-based Prevention, Department of Chronic Diseases and Health Promotion, Noncommunicable Diseases and Mental Health Cluster
• Collected and entered epidemiological data from country reports and literature
• Delivered presentation on WHO Global Infobase, a WHO geographic information system, to Headquarter data managers
• Created departmental reports and factsheets for over 40 countries

Research Assistant
Brigham Young University
January 2010 – April 2010 (4 months)Provo, Utah Area
Epidemiological study of motor vehicle crashes and safety
• Coauthored “Epidemiology of Motor Vehicle Crashes in Utah” in the Journal of Traffic Injury Prevention with Drs. Ray Merrill and Steve Thygerson

Harvard School of Public Health
Doctor of Science, Environmental Health
2013 – 2018 (expected)

Brigham Young University
MPH, Global Health Promotion
2009 – 2011

Brigham Young University
BS, Neuroscience
2000 – 2007
edit to add:

The bio stuff on the Harvard site differs from the Linkedin info. Perhaps his doctorate and the other Masters are entomology related:

Ph.D., 1996, University of Washington, Seattle WA

M.S., 1990, Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, New Brunswick, NJ

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/chensheng-lu/
 
#33 ·
Bayer has evaluated the study and posted it's response here:
http://www.bayercropscience.us/news/press-releases/2014/05122014-bee-care-harvard-statement

Excerpts:

a) Feeding honey bees levels of neonicotinoids greater than 10 times what they would normally encounter is more than unrealistic – it is deceptive and represents
a disservice to genuine scientific investigation related to honey bee health.

b) Given the artificially high levels tested over 13 consecutive weeks, the colony failure rates observed are completely expected.

c) Unfortunately, this latest study conducted by Dr. Lu repeats the fundamental flaws seen in his previous research and provides no meaningful information regarding honey bee risk assessment.
 
#34 ·
@Nabber
"Bioaccumulation occurs in living organisms not inanimate objects such as brood wax."

Seeing brood wax as a simple inanimate object is a rather simplistic way of looking at it. Many people consider a single beehive to act similarly to a single organism, with the brood wax thus being analogous to the ovaries of the superorganism. In any case, it's not like I plucked this outta my backside:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0014720 (amongst others)

A more useful definition of bioaccumulation puts it simply as when the rate of pesticide intake is greater than the sum total of pesticide expulsion and/or remediation (rendering it non-toxic). This certainly happens in the brood wax, as subsequent generations of brood are fed from contaminated stores, or additional contaminants are brought in. And the paper above illustrates that this can certainly have a net negative effect on colony health.
 
#35 ·
Pretty good study here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3338325/

Neonicotinoids in bees: a review on concentrations, side-effects and risk assessment
From the conclusions:
Via the plant sap transport neonicotinoids are translocated to different plant parts. In general, the few reported residue levels of neonicotinoids in nectar (average of 2 μg kg[SUP]−1[/SUP]) and pollen (average of 3 μg kg[SUP]−1[/SUP]) were below the acute and chronic toxicity levels; however, there is a lack of reliable data as analyses are performed near the detection limit. Similarly, also the levels in bee-collected pollen, in bees and bee products were low.
 
#36 ·
Getting to the bottom of what a field realistic dose is something that has been avoided.

The low single digits are what we usually hear about.

The presence in beebread as reported by the usda pollen survey is shocking.....I've posted it several times.

The other issue is that the presence in nectar/pollen is usually averaged but individual data points are all over the place.
 
#37 ·
> the brood wax thus being analogous to the ovaries of the superorganism.

Ovaries may be a bit of a stretch, but it is certainly correct to regard the colony as an organism, and the brood combs as an organ of that entity. And to refer to substances in the comb as "bio-accumulation." On the other hand, many beneficial substances also bio-accumulate, such as natural antibiotics, microorganisms, pheromones, and various enzymes produced by the bees.
 
#38 · (Edited)
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-05-14/bad-science-doesn-t-help-bees

In the new study, researchers didn't waste time with a low initial dose. They began right away with syrup containing 136 micrograms of insect-killer per liter. Eventually, six of the 12 colonies fed the spiked syrup failed. Calling the researchers' credibility into further question, the second study, like the first, ascribes colony failure to colony collapse disorder, a malady with characteristics not evident in either trial.
 
#39 ·
With all the flaws in the Lu studies, they still produced one important finding.

A beekeeper won't have any clue that their colonies have been poisoned until after they've failed to overwinter.

In other words, there won't be any obvious signs of insect poisoning.

You'll find an empty hive on the other side of winter.

While it's not an orthodox definition of CCD, it's close enough for most folks.

IMHO, it's a remarkable observation.
 
#41 ·
It is impossible to know if the beekeeper would notice anything. Certainly the write up makes it seem that all colonies looked the same.

The problem is, anyone that had managed a number of hives knows that they don't all look the same. Generally one does a fair amount of management to keep colonies of equal strength.

And again, are we really suppose to believe that strong full hives of 20 . that are fed weekly never try to swarm, never run out of room and need superstition or combs spun out.

There simply isn't enough detail provided to make one think that the descriptions of the management is accurate.
 
#43 ·
Again the usda pollen survey.
Imidacloprid 1 9.1 30.8 3.5-216
That is a limit if detection of 1 ppb, found in 9.1% of the colonies surveyed, an average concentration of 30.8ppb with samples ranging from 3.5 to 216 ppb.
 
#44 ·
I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that guttation is a real world problem. Planter start certainly is. Probably some specific crops are a problem....certainly a good percentage of the small sample in the usda survey are exposed, and bee bread with over 200 ppb is obviously a problem.
 
#46 ·
I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that guttation is a real world problem.
You are lucky enough to live in a country that has a lot of space and thus wilderness. So you do not see what we experience here. In our real world our bees cannot avoid pesticides by using other crops because there are no other pollen and nectar sources other than the poisoned ones. You told me you do not see any bees on corn while I was showing you pics with bees taking the guttation water and pollen of corn plants. I showed you lab results where pollen and honey was contaminated, your hive products do not. Obviously your world is not our world, sure, but that doesn't mean it is not real. Isn't it?!
That is a limit if detection of 1 ppb,..
Is that accurate enough?

"We demonstrate, however, that a daily exposure 1/100th concentration of the LD50 significantly affects the mortality rate of N. ceranae-infected honeybees."
from: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0021550

1 ppb = 1 µg/kg

You also should know how fast the stuff breaks down. They found that bees poisoned with Imidacloprid, soon after they died, the Imidacloprid breaks down. After one hour (1 hr!) only 30 % of the Imidacloprid could be found. After 48 hours only 5 % of the Imidacloprid could be found. In the bees that died. (Study by Annely Brandt, Kirchhain, reported at: http://www.deutscherimkerbund.de/phpwcms_ftp/aktuell2014-2.pdf)

So to find out the real amount of pesticide that poisoned your bees, you need to sample bees that are poisoned but still alive. You need to freeze those bees immediately.

So it remains difficult to see the real world through lab findings of either bees or pollen or anything. When oldtimer beekeepers report there is something wrong with their bees you should better do not dismiss this too easily. The biggest problem for us folks, that struggle to keep them bees alive, are other beekeepers pointing at us. Naysayers and apologists. I know your intentions are good, but all the scepticism costs us other less lucky fellows a lot of time and hives.

I am sure you would discuss the topic different if our troubles would be your troubles. I met a lot of sceptic beekeepers in the past, all denying that pesticides are causing trouble. They all became either very silent during the last decade or they became very loud - because of their losses.

It all depends much on your location - especially when it comes to water contamination. If you got a lot of fresh water sources you do not see so much trouble.

Bees are not dumb. If they can, they smell and avoid pesticides. If they are forced to consume pesticides, they get ill one way or the other.
 
#47 ·
Bernard, please do not imply what you cannot demonstrate.

What data can you supply (private data or published reports) that shows bees picking up any/significant neonics in corn guttation. One where the corn plants are not in containers, where guttation is happening instead of being forced when other moisture isn't available.

I think you are a smart guy, and I take data (and anecdotes) you provide seriously. If you have something more concrete I'd be very interested in hearing it.
 
#48 ·
Even if my hypothesis about "bioaccumulation" in the brood comb is not accurate, I still think an overreliance on testing only properly administered "field level" neonic may be missing the point. Neonic insecticides are available both commercially and to the casual suburban insectophobe. Many of the beekeepers here are not pollinating commercial crops, but are dealing with a large area of suburbia in which people may or may not be applying these insecticides in the proper manner. Yes it is technically a crime to use these products in a manner not consistent with their labeling, but when was the last time you saw Joe Johnson from down the street being hauled away for failing to follow labeling instructions?
My immediate neighbors know that I keep bees, and I would hope that they would be restrained in their use of potentially harmful insecticides, but the foraging range of my bees encompasses a great many homes, parks, and other managed areas that could have a wide variety of insecticide levels. Establishing that exposures in the range of about one order of magnitude below the LD50 causes CCD-like overwinter death of colonies is a worthy finding - and quite a different one from the hyper-controlled canola trial.
 
#53 ·
Neonic insecticides are available both commercially and to the casual suburban insectophobe. Many of the beekeepers here are not pollinating commercial crops, but are dealing with a large area of suburbia in which people may or may not be applying these insecticides in the proper manner.
Why should it matter if neonics in suburbia are sometimes misapplied? Honeybees are so abundant in the most urbanized area of the nation - Los Angeles- that pest control companies there advertise their swarm removal services: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK95K3aLwZ0 Also consider that the garden centers in suburbia do not stock enough neonics to treat even 1% of the flowering plants in any given area each year. So even if neonics are sometimes overapplied by home gardeners, only a vanishingly small percentage of bees are going to be exposed - far more bees in suburbia likely get killed everyday via collisions with cars and trucks.
 
#49 ·
I have some pictures showing honeybees collecting guttation water under field conditions. You can see this quite regularily. A well known German bees scientist looked into it (among others), some details he shows here in this document:

http://www.bv-besigheim.de/mitglieder/material/WallnerGuttation2012_02_11.pdf (in German, with pictures and charts.)

It says that the level of neonicotinoid pesticides in the guttation water in corn is critical for four weeks after the corn sprouted. (Seed coated with neonicotinoids.) Critical means it will have effects on the bees immediately. The studies also showed that the guttation water of corn (and canola and other crops) contain the neonicotinoids throughout the season, but in smaller doses.

Corn is especially interesting as a water source, since the leaf pits provide guttation water all day long.
 
#50 ·
I have some pictures showing honeybees collecting guttation water under field conditions. You can see this quite regularily. A well known German bees scientist looked into it (among others), some details he shows here in this document:

http://www.bv-besigheim.de/mitgliede...2012_02_11.pdf (in German, with pictures and charts.)
Seems to be several photos of the same bee at the same spot. One bee does not make a problem.

Corn is especially interesting as a water source, since the leaf pits provide guttation water all day long.
I don't believe the leaf pits are really guttation but accumulated rain water and dew. Has anyone every taken samples and analyzed them. Further, I don't see my bees in the cornfield next to me so I really doubt they are using it anyway.

"We demonstrate, however, that a daily exposure 1/100th concentration of the LD50 significantly affects the mortality rate of N. ceranae-infected honeybees."
from: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0021550
I don't believe that fipronil is a neonic. I agree that it is a deadly poison for bees.
 
#52 ·
I have no idea as to why a study like Lu’s gets so much more attention.
Lu’s papers become the darlings of advocacy groups to support their misguided agendas to ban a particular pesticide outright.
You've already answered your 1st excellent statement fully with your 2nd excellent statement. The truth that many claim to be seeking is not what they are actually looking for.
 
#56 ·
I don't think that there's a beekeeper anywhere in the world who has shown more bias against Dr. Lu's work than Randy.

I certainly wouldn't give his opinions on the matter any weight.

Once again, another mediocre study from Dr. Lu with an astonishing observation.

Those bees should have been poisoned immediately, but they didn't succumb until they overwintered.
 
#57 ·
I don't think that there's a beekeeper anywhere in the world who has shown more bias against Dr. Lu's work than Randy.
bias is the opposite of objectivity. i think you've got it backwards in this case wlc.

I certainly wouldn't give his opinions on the matter any weight.
you don't have to, but these opinions are in line with those held many well respected bee scientists.

Once again, another mediocre study from Dr. Lu with an astonishing observation.

Those bees should have been poisoned immediately, but they didn't succumb until they overwintered.
agreed. perhaps they were storing the tainted syrup more than utilizing it at the time, and when field forage became unavailable it was all they had for food.

deknow's points about management are right on the money.

cam's point about calling this dwindling 'ccd' is also spot on.

lu's statement from the study that his findings "reinforce the conclusion that sub-lethal exposure to neonicotinoids is likely the main culprit for the occurrence of CCD" is, well, ........

shameful science no two ways about it.
 
#60 ·
Let's forget everything else except the delayed lethality observation for a moment. One interpretation could be that pesticides need to be tested for this type of effect before approval. Currently, that's not the case.
How would such testing benefit bee health given that CCD doesn't hardly exist in the first place in the regions (e.g. Iowa, Illinois) where neonics are most intensively used (60-70% of the entire landmass of those states is covered with crops grown from neonic coated seed). And given that they only way Lu could demonstrate delayed lethality was by feeding the bees "levels of neonicotinoids greater than 10 times what they would normally encounter" http://bayercropscience.us/news/press-releases/2014/05122014-bee-care-harvard-statement
 
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