Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

Stressful grafting and queen rearing attempt

21K views 83 replies 18 participants last post by  cristianNiculae 
#1 ·
I tried my first grafting yesterday and gave up when realising that I cannot do it. I've been using chinese grafting tool and mangnifying head lamp...haha...
The cells wall were too tall on that specific frame and while inserting the tool inside I didn't have the angle to still see the larva.
However I quickly changed the strategy: took a new frame with fresh egs and done it by the Oldtimer's method. I haven't looked inside yet.
For the cell builder I used Kirk Webster's method via Michael Palmer. It worked nice. I've been on the brink of disaster though as I asked myself wether to use the shaker box or not :) and luckily I used it. The first frame I took from the brood box to shake into the cell builder had the queen on it but I didn't see it. After I shook the frame I saw the queen above the queen excluder :p; I took it and put it back into the box. So for the future the shaker box will be a very useful tool for me.

I will try to train myself from time to time to try to master this technique as I find it very economical and acurate in timing. It's important for me to have the day when I form the nucs on Saturday so I don't have to take a free day out of my vacation.

Questions:

1. Can I make the nucs and give them the cells on the same day? If yes what's the timing for introducing the cells?
2. If the nucs are too strong will they accept the cells? (I know feeding is very important on this)
3. Do you think it's a good idea to move the old queen to a nuc and leave the cell builder with one or two cells? (I'm thinking to do some sort of cutdown split before the main flow)
4. How about doing cutdown splits on all my hives? - take the old queen and a couple of brood frames away and then give the old hive a cell instead...I guess the chances of acceptance(on the other hives) are smaller but if I can make it happen I could reduce swarming chances to almost zero.
5. I find queen finding very difficult in a hive that's thriving. I'm thinking on using the shaker box instead to do the cutdown split. Shake most of the bees through or shake until I find the queen. Thoughts?

In theory everything is simple but when coming to practice I find this pretty dificult.

Thanks,
Cristian
 
See less See more
#2 ·
> 1. Can I make the nucs and give them the cells on the same day?

Yes. Accepance will be slightly better if you wait until the next day, or should I say, you make them up the day before...

> If yes what's the timing for introducing the cells?

I do whatever is convenient for me. I may put a frame of brood, a frame of honey and a queen cell in and close them up. Or I might set them all up and as soon as I'm done, go back and put the cells in.

>2. If the nucs are too strong will they accept the cells? (I know feeding is very important on this)

How big are the nucs? I don't see that it matters how strong they are as far as accepting cells.

> 3. Do you think it's a good idea to move the old queen to a nuc and leave the cell builder with one or two cells? (I'm thinking to do some sort of cutdown split before the main flow)

That works fine. Mine are usually queenless and that is what I usually do if I'm not breaking it down for mating nucs...

> 4. How about doing cutdown splits on all my hives? - take the old queen and a couple of brood frames away and then give the old hive a cell instead...I guess the chances of acceptance(on the other hives) are smaller but if I can make it happen I could reduce swarming chances to almost zero.

If the purpose is a to get more honey you are missing some of the elements. You make it queenless to purposefully have a gap in brood rearing to make for more foragers. So letting them raise their own queen times this better than giving them a cell. Also, you want to compress them (to get them into the supers) and you want to free them from the responsibilities of all the open brood. So you take at LEAST a full box of brood off, and probably a full box of honey as well. You leave the old location with only one brood box and all the capped brood.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdown

> 5. I find queen finding very difficult in a hive that's thriving. I'm thinking on using the shaker box instead to do the cutdown split. Shake most of the bees through or shake until I find the queen. Thoughts?

In my opinion, WAY too much work. If you can't find the queen, then just pull all the open brood and honey and move it to the new location and don't worry about where the queen is. If you keep an eye out for her you may see her anyway. You still get the advantage of no brood to care for, a lot of emerging brood and the entire field force at the old location. Just don't do it too soon or they will swarm. You might want to wait until one week before the flow or right on the main flow if you do this without finding the queen. Another solution if you are planning ahead is to put an excluder between each brood box four days before the split and then you'll know what box the queen is in (the one with eggs) and you can take that box to the new location without even looking for her, and then grab the open brood and honey from the rest.
 
#4 ·
Final result: total failure.

None of the methods worked. The bees started the queen cells but the egs didn't hatch. I think I kept them for too long outside the hive although it was in my kitchen were was pretty warm. However I shouldn't have tried to raise queens so early and in such weather circumstances. Having a mild winter resulted in a cold and wet spring. It's been raining for a month almost on daily basis. I've been feeding syrup from time to time.
I guess I'm too nervous about not letting my bees(money) swarm. Ridiculous!
By the way, a question came up in my mind:

Can it happen that the old queen fly away with some of the field bees during the queen building session? I mean we created a similar situation as in reproductive swarming.
 
#5 ·
Hi Cristian sorry it did not work out.

Sometimes when the bees don't finish the queen cells it is because there was a queen you did not know about in the hive with the cells. here is a simple method to make a cell raising hive out of a 2 brood box hive without finding the queen. - Put a queen excluder between the 2 brood boxes. 5 days later have a look at the combs. The box that has eggs in it has the queen. Move this box to a new bottom board a few meters away and put a lid on it. The other box is queenless you can put your new queen cells in it and the bees will raise them. A few days later join the hives back together, put the box with the queen on the bottom, then a queen excluder, then the queenless box with the queen cells on top. No newspaper is needed the bees will remember each other, and they will still care for the queen cells.

About the grafting, I find it really difficult to use a Chinese grafting tool also, I use a 000 paintbrush, much easier. If possible, I also cut the cell walls down to the foundation with a sharp knife which makes things easier also.
 
#6 ·
Thanks so much OT!

Here is what I did:

1. Put the excluder
2. After 5 days moved the box with the queen just nearby with the entrance facing oposite side. The box with no queen contained mostly capped brood, honey and pollen, shooked the core through an excluder(the queen was on the excluder and I moved it back)

My mistakes wich I'm aware off just that I've thought it would work that way too:
- didn't let them queenless too long - only 1 hour.
- kept the frame with egs too long outside the hive As I've said the eggs didn't hatch at all in the end.
- ?reunited the whole colony(used QE of course) after ~36 hours - by that time the cells were too small.

I'm sure there was no queen in that hive... the bees acted like so.

I put both the cell bar and the frame from wich I have cut the rows of cells. Both were just started but as the eggs didn't hatch... stopped.

I didn't know the eggs dry too. I thought only larvae has this problem.

Anyway... I will train for grafting cause it's much more neat than other methods.
 
#7 ·
"started queen cells but the eggs didn't hatch" You should be grafting young larva, not eggs. The should be not much larger than egg and not quite a "c" shape. I identify areas where there is good larva, tear down cell walls to get a better look and angle, lift the larva and place her in the cup. You also have to make sure you are grafting worker larva and not drone larva. Make sure you have a strong nectar flow or are feeding the cell starter hive when you place the grafts or they may not work them.
 
#9 ·
He probably means this http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?249478-Raising-Queen-Cells-Without-Grafting

Yes agree with Tim, best to use young larvae less than 24 hours since hatch from the egg. Even with the cut cell method if you use eggs the bees will often reject a lot of them. Weird, but true.

Sounds like you set up your cell starter right. Just, if the cell starter has brood, it takes longer for the bees to get into a real good queenless cell raising state. If there is no brood & the bees are put on different comb then a couple of hours is fine. But if they are on the same comb plus they have brood then leaving them queenless 24 hours before giving the cells is best. I think if you try again do that, plus use young larvae not eggs, and it will work.
 
#10 ·
OT- Thanks for the link to cut cell method. Very good pics. I'm trying to duplicate Jay Smith's method exactly,
complete with his style of breeder frames. Extra pics always helps, his are fuzzy , but he does explain things well.
As you both stated, his mating rate is high, because of his strong queens. Thanks again, Tom.
 
#11 ·
I haven't grafted the eggs. I'm stupid but not that much :))

...and yes eggs dry too. I should have just use Jay Smith method on just putting the fresh layed new frame inside the starter - no fuss, no muss

Anyway, I've made myself a copper grafting tool (FatBeeMan style) and adjusted it using a real built frame. It should work nice and I'll try it as soon as the weather permits. I will also build a nice swarm box today and shall do it "by the book" next time. I don't like the idea of waiting: put the QE and wait 7 days, put a new foundation/built frame inside the brood nest and wait 4 days etc.

At first it looked to me that the classical starter/finisher method is too complicated but now I can see it's advantages.

By using grafting and starter/finisher you can start the QC building process 4 hours after you made the decision that you need some queens.

I just have another question regarding the pollen frame; I know M. Palmer uses that artificially made one. Is it really necessary? How much pollen should be on that frame?

Thanks,
Cristian
 
#12 ·
I built up my hives via checker boarding since February. they all started as a deep and a medium 10 frame. nearly all of them managed to build up to 4 to 5 boxes tall. This build up was intended to be my mating nuc stock.

I started by grafting 45 larva via instructions by Micheal Palmer and the sustainable queen rearing method. Starter finisher all in one. This created a monster colony packed with bees 2 deeps and 5 mediums tall.

I am lucky and don't have a lot of issues with grafting. I will second OT's suggestion on the brush. The tool does not work for me either.

I also had the issue that swarm season was setting in and I have these overgrown colonies. Not a good combination as I learned last year. I first attempted to catch bees in preparation for swarming. Yeah right, ever tried a frame by frame search of 12 large hives every two days? I don't suggest you try it. This idea resulted in the loss of two swarms. Enough for me.

I then started making every hive queenless. Do you have any idea what happens in a strong hive in the middle of swarm season when you make it queenless? The make cells and they make lots of cells. One hive made 42, another 55. I think to myself, great we are all working together now. I was able to remove all the cells after they where capped by searching the hive only twice. Once 5 days after making them queenless then again 10 days after. It is amazing what desperate bees will attempt to make queen cells from. But bees can still have open queen cells after 10 days being queenless. no idea how but many of them did.

Harvesting wild queen cells I do not recommend either. far to many losses in the cell. early 26% for us.

We first moved the queens to 5 frame deep nucs with a medium on top of it. they all ended p having weak bee populations. when I discovered this i then gave each queen two medium ten frame boxes with plenty of bees. I do not want to restrict their production while I am rearing their daughters.

The queenless bees are now being broken down into two frame mating compartments and virgin queens are being added as they emerge.

So far we have gotten 280 cells from 10 hives. This includes our initial 32 grafted cells. of those we have 63 in mating compartments. 30 have been sold as virgins. we have a hand full we introduced directly to 5 frame nucs. and the rest where lost prior to emerging. Some where around 80 cells lost at my last count.

I have not tried placing cells in nucs. but if bees have been queenless for three to four days they pretty much accept anything.

We are now waiting for the confirmation of our first quens having mated. it is driving me nuts. We check them after two weeks but I know that many will not be mated by then. so far 2 out of 10 compartments have produced mated queens in two weeks. no sign of queens in the other 8. So of course this has me concerned. I woudl swear those with no sign of a queen act queenless. until I saw a virgin running across the frame acting just as frantic as the rest of the bees.

My greatest concern right now is my choice in mating compartments. I am using 10 frame deeps divided into 4 compartements each holding 2 frames.

These are placed on a stand with three shelves each shelf hold 5 of these castles. This makes 60 queens all in a space 8 feet long and 5 feet tall. Migration during mating flights is my biggest concern.

Second is that it seems to me we lose a lot of bees due to the breaking down and transferring process. Maybe it is just my worry. I do not see dead bees anywhere but It seems like we put bees in a compartment and when we come back there does not seem to be nearly as many.

My concern is that I am decimating the population of my apiary attempting to mate queens that are doing nothing but getting lost. I woudl be better off slowing it all down. spreading the bees out in 5 frame nucs and getting them mated 40 at a time.
 
#13 ·
>None of the methods worked. The bees started the queen cells but the egs didn't hatch.

I've tried transferring eggs with graftless systems (don't know how to graft them) and the bees just remove them. You need larvae.

> I think I kept them for too long outside the hive although it was in my kitchen were was pretty warm. However I shouldn't have tried to raise queens so early and in such weather circumstances.

I never start until I see drones flying. Earlier has never been productive.

> Having a mild winter resulted in a cold and wet spring. It's been raining for a month almost on daily basis. I've been feeding syrup from time to time.
I guess I'm too nervous about not letting my bees(money) swarm. Ridiculous!

Sometimes they do swarm...

> Can it happen that the old queen fly away with some of the field bees during the queen building session?
I mean we created a similar situation as in reproductive swarming.

Of course. If you crowd them enough and the old queen is still there...
 
#14 · (Edited)
I've tried transferring eggs with graftless systems (don't know how to graft them) and the bees just remove them. You need larvae.
Poor larvae. They'll have a tough life for some time until I properly learn how to graft.

Do you see any reason on having detachable bottom board on swarm box? I remember seeing on the web a swarm box on top of the finisher.

Do you think it's a good idea to just put the swarm box uppon the finisher above a QE? It looks easier than shaking the bees back.
 
#15 ·
A couple of 'tricks' that were discussed on Bee-l about a year ago...

1. Practice grafting onto a flat surface first...getting the larvae off the tool in the cell can be a bit intimidating, especially because you can't see inside so well. A microscope slide is perfect, and if you have a microscope handy you can look at the graft eating and breathing.

2. Put the frame you are going to graft from into the cell builder for a few hours before grafting...all those nurse bees will feed the heck out of the larva and they will be sitting in big pools of jelly.

deknow
 
#16 ·
A couple of 'tricks' that were discussed on Bee-l about a year ago...



2. Put the frame you are going to graft from into the cell builder for a few hours before grafting...all those nurse bees will feed the heck out of the larva and they will be sitting in big pools of jelly.

deknow
Nice tip.
 
#21 ·
The more food the larva is floating in/on, the easier the grafting will be. If you setup a starter and put the frame to be grafted from in there for a few hours before grafting, you will have an easier time grafting and have better success.

If you don't want to devote a lot of resources towards a starter, set up one of your hives as in the 'cloake board method'....queen, capped brood, empty comb below an excluder, open brood and eggs above. Keep maniupulating the colony to be like this once a week or so, and when you want a starter, just lift up the top box, put a board over the excluder and put the top box back down (or use a cloake board to do this without lifting the box).

deknow
 
#20 ·
Is this enough ventilation? D. Cushman style with holes. We are around 60 F max. temp.... so not hot at all. We've just had a fresh snow on the mountains these days.
Wood Furniture Metal Floor Hardwood
Wall Wood Ceiling Room Floor


This is my grafting tool. I just tried it and works fine. I'm planning a tuesday session after I come back from work so that I make the nucs on saturday.
Insect Wood Invertebrate Pest


How many? About 10 this session although I prepared 30 wax cups. Let's call this a training session.


Thanks for help.
 
#23 ·
Hi Cristian, you asked if your starter box has enough ventilation, personally I don't think so. It may work this time but longer term you should add more.

Thing is, you are working with bees that are trapped in there. they think it is very important to find a way out. Bees do not understand mesh, so they will cram into those holes trying to force their way out & can cause a complete blockage and suffocate the box.

Also, mesh on the bottom gets blocked by dead bees and easily blocked by live ones, the best method for a starter box is to have a strip of mesh along the bottom of each side. A common size is strip 4 inches high along the length of each box, at the bottom of each side.

With temperatures at 60 it may be OK this time although it is a risk. If the bees get hot they will not build the queen cells and if they are still alive when you open the starter you may not know why they didn't.
 
#24 ·
When attempting to graft:

How long can you keep brood on the original frame out of the hive?
Do you have to keep them both humid and warm? If so someone mentioned wrapping in a warm towel yet that will cool very quickly and cooled and damp is cold.

Same question re the recipient graft.

I don't expect cold, dehydrated larvae fair well.

As far as "priming" the cells with a drop of water. This will also cool quickly. How warm is the water one uses? Must it be distilled water? Do you use a 25g needle or smaller to get a tiny drop...what gage needle do you use.

I like the idea of putting the donor frame in the builder to get a bit more jelly.

It is amazing how anxious I get at the thought of doing a graft when surgery and manual dexterity is a routine part of my life:)

The Mannlake Queen rearing kit came last week...the grafting stuff was on back order. Perhaps that is a hint:)
 
#25 · (Edited)
Thanks very much Oldtimer, I will do it as you prescribed.

No more questions. I hope I'll come with some good results after all this theory and preparations. I've read so much that I have tons of bees in my dreams at nights :))

As I've said, the copper wire manually built graft tool works like a charm although the cells were not having an abundance of royall jelly. It works even without tearing the cells. The magnifying head lamp only complicates things and I just use a small flashlight.

How long can you keep brood on the original frame out of the hive?
I guess it's time to just go along with it:

On July 2nd 2013 I was involved in filming for a couple of beekeeping teaching videos. It was a boiling hot day with little breeze. I demonstrated grafting, including transferring larvae into cut away cell cups. It took over 2 hours to complete the whole bar of 10. As it was done for the camera I didn't intend to use them, but I had another colony where we filmed it with a queen, then removed the queen and filmed it again 2 hours later to see the difference in behaviour. Just to see what happened I put the cell bar in this colony. When I checked the next morning there were 8 acceptances!
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/grafting.html

I have so little time :(. I depend on starting the larvae on thursday in order to have a full saturday to form the nucs and add the queen cells to them.
 
#26 ·
The nicest thing about graftless systems is it eliminates the grafting issues and lets you master the other issues of queen rearing. Once those other issues are mastered (timing, cell starters etc.) then you can focus on mastering grafting without wondering if it is your grafting or your cell starter or your timing or some other thing that is the problem There are many FREE graftless methods that require no expense or special equipment at all. Probably the simplest with the least equipment is the Hopkins method. Next is the Miller method. The Better Queens, Alley and Hopkins original method are simple enough but require cell bars and wax melting etc. All of these books are available here:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesoldbooks.htm

After you can raise queens without grafting, you will know if your issues are with your grafting or something else.
 
#27 ·
I did the grafting yesterday. That was the easy part. The tough one was the shaking of bees into the starter without a funnel. I kept shaking, they kept comming out. I'm not sure of how much I've put in. I had a delimiter on 2'' as Dave Cushman suggests and I'm not sure of the amount of bees. There were about 2 frames with polen and honey and bees and another 6 frames of shaken bees. I've also added a frame with water.
I can't wait to see the results this evening when I move the bar frame to the finisher hive. I've grafted about 25 cups. I don't need that much but I put more as I'm at my first experience of this kind and I need a margin for error.

Hehe... I can now see/feel the difference between theory and practice. You have to be very organized in order to make these things happen and I thought I was, until now. :)

Thanks for support,
Cristian
 
#28 ·
The only reason a funnel is a good idea is if it has a queen excluder built in (so you don't shake the queen or the other queen into the cell builder). This is important if you are on a tight production schedule or if you have problems finding queens.

Otherwise, simply remove a few frames from the "target" box and shake the frames in the gap created by the missing frames. A frame of open brood will help hold the bees in the box. Snaking the free absolutely vertical helps also.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top