Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: grafting

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Benton, KY
    Posts
    116

    Default grafting

    I attempted to graft last weekend. I used a Chinese grafting tool, and by the end I thought I was doing real good. I grafted 30 cells hoping to get 15-20. Well I opened the cell builder and had no drawn out grafts. Is there a video showing larvae being grafted. I have a cell punch and am thinking about that. How do you attach the cell punch to the frames. Suggestions on how you do this as I have waiting all year to make queens, and now Im making a mess of this

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,336

    Default Re: grafting

    Unless you flipped every one upside down, or mangled the larvae (unlikely with the Chinese tool) I don't see how you messed up the grafting. The most important things to get right to get them to draw cells:

    1) don't start before there are drones flying
    2) the starter needs to be overflowing with bees. literally. If it is not, compress it. Remove all the supers. Remove any boxes of honey. If you have to shake all the bees off of the next box and give it to some strong hive. Keep compressing them until they don't all fit.
    3) the starter needs to be queenless
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    972

    Default Re: grafting

    Grafting:
    (continued off what Michael said...)
    4) Make DANG CERTAIN that there are NO OTHER QUEEN CELLS in the Cell Starter Colony. Make sure they have been queenless for 2 hours.

    5) Keep a damp towel to cover your grafts so they don't dry out. A spray bottle and/or a spray bar also helps.

    6) Graft only one bar at a time, place the frame into the Cell Starter, graft the nest bar, add it to the QC frame, slip it back into the Cell Starter, graft the 3rd bar, add it to the QC frame, float it down next to the pollen frame, and close it up with a mason jar feeder top.

    7) Trimming down the honeycomb to just above the larvae with a sharp knife makes things a lot easier.

    8) Do not flip the larva over. She will drown.

    I think Fat Bee Man has a grafting video, there are others. Try a Hook, a Chinese tool, a #000 sable paint brush.


    Cell Punch:
    Hot wax is used to attach them...er, well, liquid wax...just barely hot enough to stay fluid. it will kill the grub on the bottom, but not the top. Use a wax tube - bent flat (almost closed) on one end just big enough to cover with your thumb on the other.
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 04-30-2014 at 02:29 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,142

    Default Re: grafting

    I've never seen a video showing what you really want to see, close up of the tool going under and picking up and then depositing the larva. Plenty of long shots with someone sitting there. Very few showing what the larva should look like, small, hatched and in a pool of jelly.

    All you video buffs; here is the 2nd request.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Baden Wurtemburg Germany
    Posts
    162

    Default Re: grafting

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1958 View Post
    Is there a video showing larvae being grafted.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRN9...qneYD3axpM8hfk
    Stephen 26 hives. 4th year. Treat. Germany.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
    Posts
    932

    Default Re: grafting

    Her is a link to an microsoft Access chart that i put to gather, for those who might want to keep record of raising queens and grafting. You will need Microsoft Access to open this. your computer may show a warning sign but it is safe
    you might have to enable some of the content

    https://app.box.com/shared/cre2fy6fo4
    Last edited by Velbert; 05-02-2014 at 06:57 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo,MI
    Posts
    331

    Default Re: grafting

    Stephen, that's the best video of grafting I've ever seen. Thanks for posting!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,142

    Default Re: grafting

    Stephen,
    Thanks, most should be called "someone sitting at a bench." Saving this one.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    Posts
    88

    Default Re: grafting

    Did my first grafts yesterday too. It wasn't the smoothest operation, but I only had a little slice of time so I went for it. The only thing I am concerned with is that I did not leave them queenless for a few hours. I just had to shake all my nurse bees in and about a half hour later, plop in the graft. I know I botched a few, and I think I put a few that were too big in, but if I can get 50% I will be happy for now.

    I've been putting this off for far too long. In reality, it wasn't that hard and I am looking forward to the results, whatever they may be. Kinda feels like shooting film again, and waiting for it to be processed

    Question: The pollen frame next to the graft - is that so the nurse bees have the protein to make ample amounts of royal jelly?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,401

    Default Re: grafting

    Quote Originally Posted by Beetastic View Post
    . . . Question: The pollen frame next to the graft - is that so the nurse bees have the protein to make ample amounts of royal jelly?
    Yes, I also try to ensure all my cell growing colonies are also supplemented with pollen sub patties. Can't have too much royal jelly food.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Baden Wurtemburg Germany
    Posts
    162

    Default Re: grafting

    Quote Originally Posted by Velbert View Post
    Her is a link to an microsoft Access chart that i put to gather, for those who might want to keep record of raising queens and grafting.
    https://app.box.com/shared/cre2fy6fo4
    Do you have a link for the instructions doc?
    Stephen 26 hives. 4th year. Treat. Germany.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
    Posts
    932

    Default Re: grafting


  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Baden Wurtemburg Germany
    Posts
    162

    Default Re: grafting

    Quote Originally Posted by Velbert View Post
    Thank you, I'll try your chart out. Thanks for sharing.
    Stephen 26 hives. 4th year. Treat. Germany.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,333

    Default Re: grafting

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenpbird View Post
    Great..even without English. I was surprised how little jelly moves with them. Do they quickly cool. Dry out?
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,333

    Default Re: grafting

    Quote Originally Posted by Velbert View Post
    Her is a link to an microsoft Access chart that i put to gather, for those who might want to keep record of raising queens and grafting. You will need Microsoft Access to open this. your computer may show a warning sign but it is safe
    you might have to enable some of the content

    https://app.box.com/shared/cre2fy6fo4
    I was not able to open this document. Got it..but just the info...can't view a working table
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
    Posts
    932

    Default Re: grafting

    when I down load it, it shows the hive and labels on the left and at top left it has a security warning and it says ENABLE CONTENT CLICK IT

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    972

    Default Re: grafting

    Just to put into words what you want to see in the video - you want to select the larva that are both clear and "too small to see". I use a 7x magnifying loupe. These larva are about 80 hours old since they were laid as an egg by Mama Queen, that's about 8 hours after the chorion (egg shell) has dissolved. Any larva up to about 100 hours since egg-lay can make a queen, but most often, the best grafted queens are made from those between 6 and 10 hours after becoming a larva (78 to 82 hours since egg-lay).

    Chinese grafting tool - Order about 5 of them and expect one to work considerably better than the others. The flexible "tongue" slides under the larva and blob of royal jelly. It flexes as it goes down into the "inverted pyramid" at the bottom of the wax cell, scooping under as much RJ as possible. Try to lift out the RJ + larva mass without touching the cell wall (I mentioned above that cutting the comb down to just above the grubs with a sharp knife helps out considerably. Try it!) Place the "tongue" of the grafting tool into the artificial queen cell cup from slightly off-center, that is, closer to the cell wall nearest you with the blob of RJ + larva facing away from you, touch bottom flexing the tongue over the center, and depress the button while sliding the tongue backwards across the center of the bottom of the cell cup. The larva should be face up, and still in the middle of the RJ.

    Grafting hook - it is better to first prime the queen cell cup with RJ, then graft. Use a syringe when priming. Place the hook under the middle of the larva. Some RJ will make her a bit sticky, but don't rely on this. Balance her on the middle of the hook. Place her in the middle of the prime of RJ with a downward, plunging action, pulling the hook out backwards, not sweeping to the side. This way you are unlikely to flip her upside down.

    Paint brush - The #000 artist's sable paint brush works a lot like the Chinese grafting tool, flexing as it goes under the larva and getting some royal jelly in the process, except you "roll" her off the brush sideways with about 1/4 turn of the brush. Perhaps the easiest of all the tools to graft with, and you could prime the Queen cell cups with RJ as well.

    Try them all - everybody is different. Larva CAN and DO dry out in the time it takes to graft 32 to 48 queen cell cups. Cover them with a warm, damp cloth as you go, and keep a spray bottle of warm, purified water handy. Do one bar at a time, placing the frame back into the Cell Starter colony after each bar is grafted. Graft the next QC bar, take out the QC frame and add the newly grafted bar, float it down into the slot next to the pollen. Graft the 3rd bar (if using a deep) in the same manner, pull the QC frame out, add the 3rd bar, float it down into the slot, close the hive up and fill the feeder jar.

    BTW - If you are priming your queen cell cups with a syringe of royal jelly, the composition of royal jelly changes from Day One to Day 5 of a queen larva's feeding. More sugars are used early on, and more protein is added later. GET THE ROYAL JELLY FROM ONE-DAY-OLD QUEEN CELLS!
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 05-06-2014 at 04:40 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,333

    Default Re: grafting

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    Just to put into words what you want to see in the video - you want to select the larva that are both clear and "too small to see". I use a 7x magnifying loupe. These larva are about 80 hours old since they were laid as an egg by Mama Queen, that's about 8 hours after the chorion (egg shell) has dissolved. Any larva up to about 100 hours since egg-lay can make a queen, but most often, the best grafted queens are made from those between 6 and 10 hours after becoming a larva (78 to 82 hours since egg-lay).

    Chinese grafting tool - Order about 5 of them and expect one to work considerably better than the others. The flexible "tongue" slides under the larva and blob of royal jelly. It flexes as it goes down into the "inverted pyramid" at the bottom of the wax cell, scooping under as much RJ as possible. Try to lift out the RJ + larva mass without touching the cell wall (I mentioned above that cutting the comb down to just above the grubs with a sharp knife helps out considerably. Try it!) Place the "tongue" of the grafting tool into the artificial queen cell cup from slightly off-center, that is, closer to the cell wall nearest you with the blob of RJ + larva facing away from you, touch bottom flexing the tongue over the center, and depress the button while sliding the tongue backwards across the center of the bottom of the cell cup. The larva should be face up, and still in the middle of the RJ.

    Grafting hook - it is better to first prime the queen cell cup with RJ, then graft. Use a syringe when priming. Place the hook under the middle of the larva. Some RJ will make her a bit sticky, but don't rely on this. Balance her on the middle of the hook. Place her in the middle of the prime of RJ with a downward, plunging action, pulling the hook out backwards, not sweeping to the side. This way you are unlikely to flip her upside down.

    Paint brush - The #000 artist's sable paint brush works a lot like the Chinese grafting tool, flexing as it goes under the larva and getting some royal jelly in the process, except you "roll" her off the brush sideways with about 1/4 turn of the brush. Perhaps the easiest of all the tools to graft with, and you could prime the Queen cell cups with RJ as well.

    Try them all - everybody is different. Larva CAN and DO dry out in the time it takes to graft 32 to 48 queen cell cups. Cover them with a warm, damp cloth as you go, and keep a spray bottle of warm, purified water handy. Do one bar at a time, placing the frame back into the Cell Starter colony after each bar is grafted. Graft the next QC bar, take out the QC frame and add the newly grafted bar, float it down into the slot next to the pollen. Graft the 3rd bar (if using a deep) in the same manner, pull the QC frame out, add the 3rd bar, float it down into the slot, close the hive up and fill the feeder jar.

    BTW - If you are priming your queen cell cups with a syringe of royal jelly, the composition of royal jelly changes from Day One to Day 5 of a queen larva's feeding. More sugars are used early on, and more protein is added later. GET THE ROYAL JELLY FROM ONE-DAY-OLD QUEEN CELLS!
    Some mentioned using water to prime. For those who don't have QC royal jelly will that work?
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    972

    Default Re: grafting

    Remember - your goal is queen quality. The queen candidate larvae need ROYAL JELLY, not water. I'm not saying that you can't make a queen that way, but I bet you'd make a far better queen using RJ, especially first-day RJ.

    Run a full frame of 48 cell cups grafted for RJ at 9 am and pull it out for harvesting RJ with a syringe when you graft for queens at 3 PM. If you merely replace the 9 AM larvae with 3 PM larvae, this method is known as double grafting. I just use the 9 AM frame to harvest RJ with the syringe. I do this when using a grafting hook, or when I think the queen cell cups don't look like they have enough RJ when using the brush.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,841

    Default Re: grafting

    How big does the syringe needle has to be to suck up some RJ? I am thinking at the
    arm store they have bigger needle for the syringe. But I am not sure how big the needle
    has to be for this application?
    Also, is it possible to inject some more RJ into a developing larvae before she is being capped?
    I luv bee source!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads