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  1. #61
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    See, now this is what I'm talking about when I complain about insults. You've just called somebody stupid. That is not okay!
    No, I called the system stupid! A system is not a person!

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I'm still not sure what you're talking about by going the extra mile. [...] Are you doing some tests? I'm not asking to be combative, I'm curious because as a promoter of treatment-free beekeeping, I want to know how methods can be improved so I can disburse this information. But it's got to be vetted first.
    Well, I'm trying hard to think of ways of making my assay system as good as possible. So for example I'm trying to arrange things so that I can compare hives on a like-for-like basis.

    You may be right in lots of ways. Just making lots of new ones from the survivors might be as good as it can get. But I'm cautious. I want to know whether I can guard against loading up trouble by making increase from a bunch 2 year old hives that will collapse at the end of the year.

    It might be that making a lot of new hives from the survivors in the wrong sorts of ways supplies help to the bees, thus giving misleading readings about resistance capability. I want to foresee problems of that sort, rather than have to learn the hard way. So I'm raising brood and bees to make nucs in special hives that won't be part of the evaluated group.

    There's a whole lot of other stuff. Maybe I'm overthinking things. But I'd rather do that than underthink them.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,439

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    No, I called the system stupid! A system is not a person!
    Yes, I think most of us read it that way.
    Regards, Barry

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    I think the opposite.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    longton, kansas USA
    Posts
    606

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    so sorry for the losses....we had a few colonies die this winter as well. its always a bummer to see them thriving one week/month and check them again to be saddened. but, dont give up. to even have the sympathy to attempt TF keeping shows heart. just do what you see fit for them to stay tough. we are lucky here i guess. very rural area. we live in a town of about 300 people max and one old man keeps bees across the street. 2 hives. it seems hes not much of an involved beekeeper and only moves them out by the garden. last summer his 2 hives swarmed and i dont think he really understood it haha. neat ol' guy. he knows we have a larger apiary and are more active with our beekeeping. splitting,raising queens and such. but other that that,we have alot of feral colonies surrounding us in the woods and farms. my point being is that IMO, TF success depends heavily on locality. meaning, we are soo for away from people who do heavy treatments on bees. i believe that has quite a bit to do with it.

    just dont give up on it. relax for a few days and set some guidelines and baselines for the year. when we decided to invest more in a beekeeping operation,we decided to do as little as possible and approach what we do as HIVE management and very little bee management. TF,foundationless,and less intrusive. it has been working for a while now....but like i said we are lucky i guess and locale is very overlooked. remember you want to create (no matter how you mange ur bees) a strong line for that area u have them in.

  5. #65

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Mike, do more work at the bees. The time is better spend in the apiaries. Take some pictures, too, I love to see pictures of bees and bee stuff. Can't get enough of it. Combs are flooded with nectar right now. Lovely sight and smell.


  6. #66
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Mike, do more work at the bees. The time is better spend in the apiaries. Take some pictures, too, I love to see pictures of bees and bee stuff. Can't get enough of it. Combs are flooded with nectar right now. Lovely sight and smell.
    Bernhard, I have 27 hives - do you think I don't do work with my bees! Yes, I love the sight, smell, sound of a hive too! I love too the way my bees connect me to the landscape, and to the seasons; to Nature itself.

    Mike
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  7. #67

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Still you spend too much time to discuss things. So that is a strong hint: you need more hives.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,983

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    since you are artificially requeening your experimental hives wlc, i don't consider them comparable to the colonies that survived multiple generations for a number of years like the ones we are discussing. they are just not in the same category of 'successful tf beekeeping'.

    for more typical operations like most of the contributors here are running it seems to be the common denominator.

    So you reject any other methods of not treating. even if they work. based upon they are not the same as your methods? even though your methods result in large losses. Or what some would define as failure. Sort of cornered into being right no matter what your results are.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    [Mike Bispham: "I'm not sure how resistant my bees are, or whether things will all fall apart."]

    Neither am I, but that's the glorious simplicity of treatment free! That part takes care of itself. There's no testing you can do (except one kind) that tells you everything you want to know. You can only learn something about just a couple traits, the existence of which does not guarantee survival. Only the Bond test teases out the truly valid information.
    I agree with all that, though we should all note that 'treatment free' as used here means ... 'along Solomon's Bond Method lines.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I'm still not sure what you're talking about by going the extra mile. "Going the extra mile" is a biblical term which refers to carrying a Roman soldier's pack further than legally required or allowed. Are you doing some tests? What are you doing that constitutes going the extra mile? I'm not asking to be combative, I'm curious because as a promoter of treatment-free beekeeping, I want to know how methods can be improved so I can disburse this information. But it's got to be vetted first.
    There's something more I want to add to this, apart from what I wrote in my first reply.

    I also want to work hard at improving my understanding of the relations between bond husbandry (or traditional husbandry as I prefer) and the understanding of population health dynamics supplied by the joint sources of bio-evolutionary understanding and traditional husbandry. And I want to work hard to at explaining how that works, and why an understanding of it is helpful to beekeepers.

    Its often the case here that my arguments fail to impress, not because they are wrong, but because I've failed to get across the the fact that the sort of simplicity you describe is also, identically, the core of an evoltionary understanding which is remarkable and beautiful, and simultaniously, the core method used for thousands of years to maximise productivity and safeguard health in livestock.

    And that consideration of the parallels is a marvelous aid to good beekeeping. It helps you see what might be going wrong - and it does go wrong. It provides an explantion that leads toward an understanding that while it might be going wrong for some people, the same methods might work well elsewhere. It provides a framework to talk about the various factors, as mechanisms that play out according to circumstances.

    So going the extra mile is about that too. Its about developing a sound theoretical understanding of what influence selective propagation has on bee health, to add to the simple strategic moves that wrap them up - that apply them. To explain to myself why what work, works. And its about trying to make that understanding available to people who might never have come across it, or who might want to go deeper.

    To come back to your question: I think that methods can be improved this way.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Its often the case here that my arguments fail to impress,
    As I said, I'm not accustomed to reading your posts, but you are saying a whole lot about the methods I'm asking about without seeming to mention a single one of them.

    Maybe I'm strong on methods and weak on explanations, but I am failing to be impressed because I'm failing to see any actual information. Everybody knows my methods, but precious few agree with the explanation. In your case, I don't know your methods. Please expound upon your methods. What are you doing?

  11. #71
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Your methods with my tweaks. Read my posts. Read my website.

    Mike (uk)
    Last edited by Barry; 04-09-2014 at 04:15 PM. Reason: quoting
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    I'm sorry, but that's not how it works on internet forums or in real world discussions and debates. If you want me to know something, put it in front of my face. Telling someone to go look it up is arrogance, especially when it's your arguments you're trying to impress upon your audience.

    If your arguments are failing to impress, perhaps you should find out why. Because I think I'm starting to understand. I was driven away by incivility, but there appears to be a corresponding lack of meaningful content.

    But we're getting off topic. If you don't want to answer a simple question, it's not my job to go on and on trying to get it out of you.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I'm sorry, but that's not how it works on internet forums or in real world discussions and debates. If you want me to know something, put it in front of my face.
    The converse is true. If you want to know something look it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Telling someone to go look it up is arrogance, especially when it's your arguments you're trying to impress upon your audience.
    I'm not trying to impress you Solomon. Frankly you've been rather rude this past few days and I'm not inclined to be bullied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    If your arguments are failing to impress, perhaps you should find out why. Because I think I'm starting to understand. I was driven away by incivility, but there appears to be a corresponding lack of meaningful content.
    You're entitled to your view. Since you appears not to have read anything I've written I'd say it was tenuously founded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    If you don't want to answer a simple question, it's not my job to go on and on trying to get it out of you.
    Its made me think it would be a good idea to write up what I do, and why, and post it to my website. As and when I get around to that I'll let you know. Till then you are welcome to read and comment on my posts.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Upon review of some of your old post, I guess I should have been prepared for such an eventuality. I had just been told my whole life that the way to get information was to ask, but perhaps that's not the way it works in the UK. However, I have listened to dozens of debates with learned Brits, and never have I heard "look it up." When someone asks me something, I tell them, but that's just me.

    I wish you good fortune with your beekeeping.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I had just been told my whole life that the way to get information was to ask, but perhaps that's not the way it works in the UK.
    No, it isn't. The way to get information is to ask nicely. Being rude then demanding information pretty much puts the other person in the position where refusing is the only choice.

    That's how it works in the UK.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    I don't read Mike's posts much any more. He seems excessively relentless to me. He takes over threads, pounds the polemic pedal way too hard, and ends up saying nothing new. This thread is a good example; it isn't about Mike. It's about Andrew and his decision. I appreciate Andrew's honesty in reporting his results; too often the presumption is that folks who do not have good results with TF techniques, just quit keeping bees and are never heard from again. I look forward to hearing about Andrew's further endeavors, keeping bees in a less than optimal area. He strikes me as one of the most thoughtful members of the forum and I always read his posts.

    All that said, I did take a look at Mike's website, and found that he doesn't know what CCD is.

    But I noticed something else as well. He doesn't take pictures, or if he does he doesn't post them. This seems odd to me. He is evidently able to spend hours every day fulminating about what is wrong with the tactics of other beekeepers, but doesn't have a moment to illustrate his own results pictorially

    For all we know, he doesn't actually have any bees. I for one would like to see at least one picture of Mike's beeyard. Though I must admit, unless he's in the picture, holding up a sign that says "This is Mike's beeyard" I may continue to be doubtful. And even if he does that, I reserve the right to check the pixels.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,211

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    So how do you get your questions answered?

    I've always thought that you could just post your question and some kind soul would come along and provide an answer or at least a pointer to some documentation. I finally figured out that this is the slow way and often gives impractical results.

    The best way to get an answer to a difficult question is to post the wrong answer and then watch as 400 people trip all over themselves to tell you why you are wrong and provide the correct answer with documentation and pictures as fans cheer and sideline arguments galore erupt, experts are called in to harrumph and state their opinions, and in the end, a thorough answer is provided. Don't believe it? Try it sometime and watch the spectacle.

    Human nature ain't.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,138

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Fusion Power, I can never get that smile icon to work, but you got one out of me.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,120

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    I too laughed at Fusion_power's post.


    And as the designated advocate at Beesource for disadvantaged/underemployed smileys, there are alternate ways to employ most smileys - if you know the secret code. For instance, you can get the happy face smiley shown in post #77 simply by typing a colon, then a right parenthesis (put spaces on both sides of the code). The secret code looks like this :) and results in this

    You can find the secret code for other smileys by doing a 'rollover' of smileys after clicking the smiley button (at least on PCs), or just look underneath the smiley in that window for the 'name' of the smiley. It is always preceded by a colon. Not surprisingly, the secret code for the 'run over by a bus' icon is this :bus


    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,995

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Mike if you could take those last few comments as a learning experience some of these threads could go a whole lot better.

    The reason you and I got offside with each other pretty quick was this sequence of events which happened repetitively. First, you would make ( in my view ), some theoretical, oversimplistic statement. Thinking it to be wrong / incomplete I would ask for evidence / reference. Invariably you would refuse, instead telling me to "go look for it". If I pressed the matter, you would then resort to name calling and abuse. After that, you would then repeat the whole thing in further posts adding nothing new, and then tell me you had "proved me wrong" when in fact, you hadn't.

    Whether you are willing to change I don't know. But take a look at your threads and you will see how you tend to get the same reaction from everybody.

    When someone asks for a link or evidence, it can sometimes be a gentle way to teach you something. If you cannot prove what you say, maybe it is wrong. A persons ability to learn is at least in part linked to their ability to question themselves.

    The other gripe I have with your posts is they are all theory and never substance, and I mean never. Read other peoples posts you will see constant reference to their own bees, their own experience, their own research (with references), etc. Do likewise and these threads will take a turn for the better.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 04-09-2014 at 01:16 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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