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  1. #41
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    So now you are selling bees?
    My drones are.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,369

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    My drones are.
    Well, if your drones really are spreading their genes and mating with virgins, then there must actually be local stocks of bees, right? How could it work otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Mike, I'm in midtown Manhattan. There are no local stocks.



    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  3. #43
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    After this past winter, most of the local hives are going to come from packages.

  4. #44
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Mike, I'm in midtown Manhattan. There are no local stocks. We import everything. So, right now, I'm the local source of TF genetics.
    Fair do's.

    I wish we had the inclination, to tease these terms out a bit more. 'TF' covers too much ground to make proper sense. To me having someone else supply you bees that are replaced annually, and breeding your own are such different things that they really require different descriptors.

    When we're talking its all too easy to lose sight of that. And then things get confusing.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  5. #45
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Well, he doesn't treat, so he's treatment free.

    Course that definition could include someone who lets all their bees die every year and replaces them with packages of treatment requiring bees & let's them die again & does the same thing over. But I don't think WLC will do that he's buying treatment free bees.

    There may be several methods of being treatment free but end of day you don't treat, you are treatment free. You do treat, you are not treatment free.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #46
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Fellas, I hate to bring this up, but the vast majority of TF beekeepers have to replace their dead-outs annually.

    That's why so many of them quit.

  7. #47
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    I had the impression that most of them were able to make up their losses from their own bees?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #48
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    I'm referring to hobbyists.

  9. #49
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    So was I. That's the impression I've gained from reading the writings of hobbyists on Beesource.

    Although I have seen people talking about buying packages but most of what I read is people talking about breeding from their own.

    Course, I only know what people choose to divulge.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #50
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    In my own situation, I prefer to rely on the skill of the queen breeder, Daniel Weaver.

    He's not my only choice by the way. Look at it this way, I get to try out different stocks from around the country without having to flood Manhattan with drones.

  11. #51
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    In my own situation, I prefer to rely on the skill of the queen breeder, Daniel Weaver.
    To illustrate what I mean, consider this characterisation by Randy Oliver:

    "I've been encouraged in recent rears by the number of beekeepers who appear
    to be successfully keeping locally-adapted stocks of bees without treatment
    for varroa. I am a strong supporter of their efforts, and see them as the
    wave of the future." [1]

    The key to what he means is in 'locally adapted'. While he doesn't say it, I'm pretty sure he's referring to people who carefully select and breed. Who do 'husbandry' in its full sense - 'population husbandry'.

    Randy goes on:

    "Unfortunately there is also great deal of confusion as to what 'treatment
    free' beekeeping really means."

    Part of that confusion is found here. We need to distinguish between - apart from anything else - TF beekeeping as described by Randy, and TF beekeeping as practiced by people like yourself. Just because... they are worlds apart.

    We can't talk clearly unless we do that. And that's a good enough reason.

    Mike (UK)

    [1] QUEENS FOR PENNIES, Randy Oliver, American Bee Journal, March 2014, 273-277
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  12. #52
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Good point Mike.

    I think you should write a plan and submit it to WLC to guide him as to how to run a selective breeding program with his 2 hives.

    Or failing that, perhaps he is doing the best that is practical already?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
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    5,113

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    To me having someone else supply you bees that are replaced annually, and breeding your own are such different things that they really require different descriptors.
    In my view, if you're not doing something successfully, consistently, you're not really doing the thing named. If you can't get to the corner market without hitting a light pole, you're not a driver, you're a crasher. Buying bees every year and not treating them (resulting in crash) is not "treatment-free beekeeping." It's treatment-free bee crashing.


    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I'm pretty sure he's referring to people who carefully select and breed.
    The selection need not be careful, as anybody who has tried it has found. One is always selecting for something, and the first thing we can select for is basic survival without even trying.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  14. #54
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    The selection need not be careful, as anybody who has tried it has found. One is always selecting for something, and the first thing we can select for is basic survival without even trying.
    You can speak for yourself Solomon! I'm doing everything I can to maximise my chances of having treatment free bees at all. I've invested a lot of work in it and I think its worth going the extra mile. I want the best quality bees I can make - not just basic survival.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #55
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    How can you go the extra mile? Do you put them in a freezer in winter? Do you put them under a sprinkler?

    Or are you talking about making it easier (helping, or treating as it could be called)?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  16. #56
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    How can you go the extra mile? Do you put them in a freezer in winter? Do you put them under a sprinkler?

    Or are you talking about making it easier (helping, or treating as it could be called)?
    Lets just back up a little:

    [Originally Posted by Solomon Parker]
    "The selection need not be careful, as anybody who has tried it has found. One is always selecting for something, and the first thing we can select for is basic survival without even trying."

    [Mike Bispham]
    You can speak for yourself Solomon! I'm doing everything I can to maximise my chances of having treatment free bees at all. I've invested a lot of work in it and I think its worth going the extra mile. I want the best quality bees I can make - not just basic survival.

    First, that wasn't intended as an insult, or a criticism of what you do. I'm a big fan of your approach. If I've insulted you in the past it wasn't intentional.

    It meant what it says. I put a great deal of time and thought into my resistance raising project. (I don't mean to say you don't!) I'm not sure how resistant my bees are, or whether things will all fall apart. While I'm pretty sure I have feral bees around, I also have a big commercial over the hill.

    So I'm planning to do what I can to influence my drone space. I'm planning to make increase only from my best - and that means carefully creating the circumstances in which tests show up the things I want to see. I don't want to make bees that can only survive if you split them every year. (I'm not accusing you of that!) I want to make the best bees I can, without in any way damaging my surrounding ferals. I want performers, not 'survivors'.

    And I want to see how far this kind of thing can go - as much as anything to prove a point and make the experience and method available to others. I hate the industrialisation of bees, the stupidity of the system, more than is healthy.

    I make no compromises whatsoever with treatments or maniplulations - in fact I'm working hard to ensure that manipulations that benefit the bees aren't created accidentally.

    I'm aiming high and investing a lot of effort - this project occupies about a third of my work time and swallows a not insignificant proportion of the hard earned money earned in another third.

    There are plenty of half hearted - and wholehearted - efforts that fail - and spread the word that 'tf doesn't work.' I don't want to be one of them.

    Those are some of the things I meant by 'going the extra mile.'

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  17. #57

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    At last you are a noble man, Mike, and you will be successful if you keep up the good work. Less discussing, more learning from the bees. I see you working hard, but do not too easily dismiss reality. Than you will not belong to the treatment free bee crashers.

  18. #58
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    ...you will be successful if you keep up the good work. Less discussing, more learning from the bees. I see you working hard, but do not too easily dismiss reality.
    That's the last thing I want to do Bernhard. But I'm not restricting myself to learning from my bees. I believe there are very sound scientific explanations that I - and others - can use to very good effect. Not everyone is sympathetic to that approach - but some are. And we'll continue to have discussions that try to improve our comprehension of the realities.

    All the best,

    Mike
    Last edited by mike bispham; 04-08-2014 at 02:53 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  19. #59
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    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
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    3,072

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    In my view, if you're not doing something successfully, consistently, you're not really doing the thing named. If you can't get to the corner market without hitting a light pole, you're not a driver, you're a crasher. Buying bees every year and not treating them (resulting in crash) is not "treatment-free beekeeping." It's treatment-free bee crashing.
    I do not agree this comparison is accurate. I would consider "Did you build the car before you drove to the market" a more accurate comparison. Not everyone is a car manufacturer. not everyone is a breeder. I am in the process of just rearing queens. It is not easy. It is likely part of the reason not everyone does it. It requires a lot of time effort expense and resources.

    I do agree with the idea that if all you are doing is killing bees then you are not in fact keeping them. If what you are doing is primarily failing then you are in fact practicing failure. I do not see that treatment free and success go together. To often the argument about treatment free want to ignore that point. First establish that you have anything that works better than normal. Which so far I do not see. Show a higher survival rate. a more disease free apiary on average. Higher honey yields. anything. But as far as I can tell the average treatment free beekeeper runs neck and neck with any other beekeeper. this indicates that treatment free causes no change at all. And the treatment free beekeeper suffers much higher losses in getting their.

    I see much reason to think that the success of some regardless of weather they treat or do not treat has to do with experience and becoming a better beekeeper.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: My TF Trial is over - for the time being

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I put a great deal of time and thought into my resistance raising project. (I don't mean to say you don't!)
    I don't. I put a great deal of time into explaining it. In my view, it's pretty simple. Bunch of bees, don't treat, many die, rapidly multiply from the survivors.


    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I'm not sure how resistant my bees are, or whether things will all fall apart.
    Neither am I, but that's the glorious simplicity of treatment free! That part takes care of itself. There's no testing you can do (except one kind) that tells you everything you want to know. You can only learn something about just a couple traits, the existence of which does not guarantee survival. Only the Bond test teases out the truly valid information.


    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I hate the industrialisation of bees, the stupidity of the system, more than is healthy.
    See, now this is what I'm talking about when I complain about insults. You've just called somebody stupid. That is not okay!


    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Those are some of the things I meant by 'going the extra mile.'
    I'm still not sure what you're talking about by going the extra mile. "Going the extra mile" is a biblical term which refers to carrying a Roman soldier's pack further than legally required or allowed. Are you doing some tests? What are you doing that constitutes going the extra mile? I'm not asking to be combative, I'm curious because as a promoter of treatment-free beekeeping, I want to know how methods can be improved so I can disburse this information. But it's got to be vetted first.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

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