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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Thought I was Treatment Free

    Quote Originally Posted by woodedareas View Post
    What is the purpose of your comment other than tone argumentative?
    We get a lot of argumentative people in here who want to argue about things like "wax dipping hives is a treatment," "there is no such thing as treatment-free beekeeping when you use contaminated foundation," or "boxes are treatments (all caps rage)."

    While I am fully aware of the existence of man-made chemicals in wax, I flatly reject the idea that the chemicals that come in wax foundation have anything to do with treatment-free beekeeping. So when you tie the two, I'm going to speak up. That is the purpose of forums. This is not a place where agreement is expected, or even it seems possible, and thus, not only can your conclusions be questioned, but also your questions.

    You'll notice that according to the definitions, treatments are placed in hives with the purpose of affecting a disease, not relating to chemicals that make it into the hives under other circumstances. So I will reiterate the point that chemicals in wax foundation have nothing to do with treatment-free beekeeping and are more appropriately categorized under "natural" or "organic." This is not an argumentative statement, it is no insult pointed in your direction, it is a factual statement and intended to maintain accurate definitions of concepts.
    Last edited by Solomon Parker; 04-04-2014 at 12:52 PM.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    872

    Default Re: Thought I was Treatment Free

    Quote Originally Posted by woodedareas View Post
    I thought I was treatment free because I do not use any chemicals in my hives. . . . So although I may not desire to treat my hives with chemicals it is very possible the so called store bought frames and foundations are already contaminated and the honey I produce and thought was clean of chemicals could e exposed to contaminated foundation bees wax. This is like a viscous cycle where it seems impossible to keep clean hives. From now on I will the folks that I sell honey to that I do not use any chemicals in my hives, but that does not mean my hives are chemical free. I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter.
    It seems to me that you are confusing "treatment free" with "organic". The commercial foundation does not contain a treatment intended to fix or cure anything so it is considered acceptable treatment-free practice. It is not organic, however, because it can and does contain chemicals that do not meet organic criteria. IMO it is physically impossible to produce true organic honey because we have no control over where the bees collect their nectar and pollen. Short of locking them inside the hive and feeding them continuously, I see no way to produce chemical/contaminant-free honey.

    The best "cure" for contaminants in your comb is to go entirely foundationless. It takes a bit more effort but is the only way I know that you will avoid chemicals and pollutants. But even then the bees themselves will continue to bring contaminants into the hives.

    Solomon Parker is just trying to say that this forum is about being treatment free and that the definition of treatment free does not necessarily include being organic. There are treatments that are considered organic and by the definition of treatment free, they do not fit in here.

    HTH

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,622

    Default Re: Thought I was Treatment Free

    I must agree with Sol, using commercially available foundation is not a treatment. I find it hard to believe that after all of the boiling that is done to beeswax, that the chemicals in raw wax would not be seriously degraded. That aside, I do intend in the future to make a foundation mill and mill my own wax, mostly for comb honey use.

    Crazy Roland

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,230

    Default Re: Thought I was Treatment Free

    Quote Originally Posted by woodedareas View Post
    I have read the definition very carefully and I respectfully disagree. Since I read legal documents and definitions almost everyday aim satisfied I am in the right place. What is the purpose of your comment other than tone argumentative? I have learned a great deal from this thread and I am certain other have also found this subject to be informative. In particular I will be very careful about expelling the possibility of chemical pollutants in my hives even though I do not personally introduce them.
    "aim satisfied"? Really?

    Would you care to wager on the presence of chemical pollutants in your hives? What about your child or yourself? Doesn't everybody after a certain time, in the 1960s I believe, have a certain amount of radioactive fallout present in their bodies from when Atom bombs were tested in Nevada?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,678

    Default Re: Thought I was Treatment Free

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Andrew, maybe the standards are an indication that what is allowed can't be lower? There is no way to get to zero or below detectable levels.
    @Mark - More to the point is that there are some pests that can not be overcome without the use of insecticides. Colorado Potato Beetle being one such critter - at least when we are talking farm scale. Spinosad "works" on CPB grubs - is considered organic - and from what I have seen is applied without what I consider proper concern for native pollinators. That would call for night time applications (Spinosad is active when wet and depending on formulation takes about 4 hours to dry) and I have not seen farms willing to spend extra for their day shift to apply pesticides at night.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Thought I was Treatment Free

    "...I flatly reject the idea that the chemicals that come in wax foundation have anything to do with treatment-free beekeeping."

    It's a major issue for TF beekeepers who want to be 'chemical free' or want to keep bees in an organic farm setting.

    Contaminated bee's wax is also an issue with regards to the hive's microfloral community.

    Regardless, there have been some useful suggestions for how to reduce/eliminate contaminated wax from a TF hive.

    Sol, maybe one day you'll see the forest through the trees.

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