Page 2 of 25 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 482
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    he eusocial ants (and others) have genetic castes and specializations. Apis does not.
    This also surprised me a bit. A recent (2014) paper states:

    Although ant species exist for which complete genetic caste determination has been described, these seem to be the exception rather than the rule
    From: The role of chromatin and epigenetics in the polyphenisms of ant castes. Briefings in Functional Genomics. Advance Access published January 24, 2014

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,727

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Very interesting conversation.

    Back to broad or narrow gene pool & selection for specific traits, nature, at various times, does both.

    Brother Adam, it could also be argued, did both. He selected bees from all over the world and brought them together. But also, he selected very specifically for certain traits and with a good deal of success.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Brother Adam, it could also be argued, did both.
    Exactly. He was interested in getting the best of all or any. The nativists hold him in very low regard on this account, claiming that he nearly destroyed the English black bee. Of course, that bee came from the European mainland and it could be argued that the cause of the Isle of Wight disease was the inbreeding of the English bee for centuries. Brother Adam claimed that by importing bees, the acarine mite was beaten back to insignificance. The Buckfast strain, in turn, was imported by Weavers to Texas and formed one component of their hybrids. As I said earlier, there are a lot of different schools of beekeeping. Some want a gentle bee, some a hardy bee, some a purebred bee. These goals may be incompatible.

    PLB

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,727

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Useful insights Peter, thanks.

    "Nativists". Never heard the term before but it fits & has a great ring to it I like it.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    705

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    An example is that when California was settled by Europeans, there were millions of acres of plants that were perfect for honeybees, especially the sages.
    The California Chaparral sages (S. apiana and mellifera) are actually speciated by specialized pollinator preference-- a fundamental paper by Vern and Alma Grant established this observation. This image is clipped from their paper --

    Cite - You must read this paper -- absolutely fundamental on pollinator-plant dyads
    Mechanical Isolation of Salvia apiana and Salvia mellifera (Labiatae)
    Author(s): Karen A. Grant and Verne Grant Source: Evolution, Vol. 18, No. 2 (Jun., 1964), pp. 196-212Published by: Society for the Study of Evolution
    Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2406392

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    ceredigion (yes, its a county in West Wales UK)
    Posts
    33

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    The nativists hold him in very low regard on this account, claiming that he nearly destroyed the English black bee.
    PLB
    Lol. As a "nativist" I will vouch for many of us "nativists" disagreeing with his methodology and disregard for our indigenous bee, but I can assure you he was, and is, held in very high regard as a thoughtful and talented bee enthusiast.
    Inbreeding can only be held to blame for the Isle of Wight disease in the same way as it could for the susceptibility of native Americans to smallpox when Europeans arrived across the pond.

  7. #27

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Welcome to Beesource mbc.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Here in the U.S. we have both a western and eastern population of commercially available Honeybees.

    Some recent studies have shown that the eastern population are just one big hybridized 'American' Honeybee population.

    And, they're not all that resistant, although some will say that their resistannce has improved over the years.

    My question would be, "Where exactly does Dr. Delaplane think that this putative 'genetic diversity' is coming from?"

    I won't disagree that a well mated queen will produce a stronger colony. But, 'genetic diversity'?

    I'm not sure that that's what's really happening. I think it's just a matter of well mated queens. The 'diversity' and everything else would then follow.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    705

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,


    The "Thrice out of Africa" paper should be reviewed in the context of this discussion.

    The paper demonstrates that in the process of "Africanization" a significant fraction of diverse genetics are retained in a characteristic and stable proportion. Additionally, the "Iberian-German" sourced genetics become more frequent.
    Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium presumes that this neutral fraction has selective advantage. The hybrid swarm is selected over an isolate.

    Cite:
    Charles W. Whitfield, et al.
    Thrice Out of Africa: Ancient and
    Recent Expansions of the Honey Bee,
    Apis mellifera
    Science 314, 642 (2006);

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    The California Chaparral sages (S. apiana and mellifera) are actually speciated by specialized pollinator preference
    Of course, but this is the central mistake that people make when they see such perfect matches: that there is some sort of intentionality. These miraculous adaptations are the result of evolution, which is non-directional. Further, pollinators and flowers come in myriad forms. But to isolate one well-matched pair and draw conclusions from it would be like this: I see a MacDonalds in every town and crowds of people eating there. Is this an example of some sort of perfect food distribution system, or just an exception to the way that food is generally distributed and consumed?

    I looked into co-evolution quite a bit with the eye toward writing an article about it. I realized over time that the perfectly matched plant/pollinator pairs are the exception rather than the rule. Generalists, like the honey bee tend to be far more widespread and much less prone to extinction. A plant that relies on a particular pollinator, or vice versa is living in a very precarious niche, for if one loses the other, they both go. Whereas plants that attract multiple pollinators, like say: a sunflower, have a better chance to survive long term. Just the same way a pollinator that can visit a wide range of plants does.

    PLB

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    705

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Peter,
    "Generalists, like the honey bee tend to be ..... much less prone to extinction."
    That is EXACTLY the point I am trying to impress. Honeybees have great fitness because they are generalists par excellence. The have substituted social organization and social "intelligence" for instinctual specificity. My further expansion of this principal is that honeybees have avoided the typical insect specialization through a series of (rare-in-insects) mating systems. The imperatives of this evolutionarily selected system run counter to the dam-sire-studbook model of trait selection.

    Bees have very strong genetic barriers to resist "the siren song" of specialization. Insects speciate at the drop of a hat, becoming evolutionarily fragile in the process. Honeybees have not specialized. The mechanism of single locus incompatibility ensures outcrossing, polyandry ensures high levels of variability, social communication ensures that multiple and diverse resources can be acquired without instinctual hard-wiring.

    Because bees resist specialization, old-world flowers competing for pollination have no evolutionary incentive to adopt specialized designs. The old-world flowers have highest fitness when they are "generic" in design. They compete against other plants by offering surplus of nectar (to the limits of this resource constraint). Social communication means these resources can be acquired by the hive-mind. Old-world flowers have simple nectars with a "generic" sugar mixture -- new world and Australian flowers often have higher complex carbohydrates in their nectar.

    Compare (at the other extreme) solitary orchid bees finding the pollinaria of a single species of orchid across hundreds of acres of forest by targeting the faint analogs of the bee's own mating pheromone evolved into the flower fragrance. The flowers are bee mimics, and the pollinaria is the larvae resource.

    As an aside, let me add that the endless discussions of human hive design on message boards miss the salient point of bees. The assumption is that unlocking the knowledge what is preferred and best for bees is required. However, bees don't "care" -- the super-organism adapts, and modifies its nest and behavior to fit conditions. Some solitary bees have very specific habitat preferences (soil of an exact texture and chemical composition, or pith of a particular species of plant on 2nd year stems), bees nest in old tires happily. Taking the upper-lower entrance conundrum as an example--- the super-organism just shifts its allocation of guard and ventilation duties to match. It is the extreme behavioral flexibility of the honeybees that is the genius of this evolutionary design.

    Popular treatment of Orchid bees : https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress...attract-wasps/
    Last edited by JWChesnut; 03-30-2014 at 10:07 AM.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    705

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Of course, but this is the central mistake that people make when they see such perfect matches: that there is some sort of intentionality.
    *Sigh*, read the Grants' paper please. The isolation is mechanical -- (Salvia's have a trigger mechanism that makes tongue length vs. weight of insect absolutely defined). This trigger is also present in old-world salvia -- and has been presented as the incentive for cell-size expansion--- to lengthen the tongue so the "enlarged bee" could better work the mountain Salvia vs. the better adapted (heavier) bumblebee.

    No one is implying "intentionality" to plants -- I think we all can be certain without citing a source they do not possess higher consciousness.

    Some of us, not just PLB, have worked in evolutionary biology for decades --- schooling us that we should avoid a bit of colloquial sloppiness in the agency of evolution in Forum postings really just short circuits discussion.

    Discussions requires one to listen to what another is saying, not just think of ways to score points.

    Illustration of a bee on an old-world Salvia (cite: Ann Bot-2007-Reith-393-400.pdf )
    Last edited by JWChesnut; 03-30-2014 at 09:34 AM.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Social communication means these resources can be acquired by the hive-mind. Old-world flowers have simple nectars with a "generic" sugar mixture -- new world and Australian flowers often have higher complex carbohydrates in their nectar.
    The use of the term "hive mind" is tenuous. Again, we like to think of it as a mind, but it can just as easily be characterized as a system of responses, like a machine. To elevate the hive system to equivalence with mental processes, is a bit of a leap. Mental processes involve the ability to project, that is, to imagine. The foraging bees are simply reporters, and they recruit followers.

    This distinction between old and new world flowers, where did you get that idea? Are you saying that there is some difference based entirely upon the presence or absence of honey bees? Honey bees are a member of the pollinator community, they never occur by themselves. There are always other pollinators, and there is always a variety of plant choices (except in an agricultural monocrop situation, but that is fairly uncommon worldwide

    Discussions requires one to listen to what another is saying, not just think of ways to score points.
    I am sorry if that was the impression I gave, I thought we were just having a conversation. My comments were not intended to be taken personally. I don't know you and harbor no ill toward you. I apologize for whatever I said that bothered you.
    Last edited by peterloringborst; 03-30-2014 at 09:26 AM.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    705

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Yes, old world and new world plants have markedly different nectar characteristics. A guild of new world plants are hummingbird pollinated, and these are typically high sucrose, low fragrance, lower sugar concentration (20% brix). Flower design is highly different, enforcing the distinction. This is not to say that many old world plants are also equally specialized (viz. the alpine salvia with its weight -tongue length constraint referenced above).

    A series of economically important examples are instructive:
    Squash -- pollen clumps together (for flying beetle pollination), nectar sugar reward insufficient for bees -- Colonies working new-world cucurbits fields often decline
    Avocado -- 9-13% perseitol (indigestible to bees), 90% sucrose. Bees forage off-orchard unless forced to concentrate on trees.
    Eucalyptus -- Pollen is often lacking bee-balanced amino acids leading to serious nutritional issue requiring pollen supplementation, and nectar has higher carbohydrates in 10-15% concentration (fine for flying foxes, but indigestible to bees).

    Intriguing popular account of fossil and extinct old-world hummingbirds, leaving a stranded legacy of flowers. http://news.sciencemag.org/evolution...-were-european
    Last edited by JWChesnut; 03-30-2014 at 10:11 AM.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Yes, old world and new world plants have markedly different nectar characteristics.
    But are you suggesting that is a result of the presence or lack of Apis m? Of course there are differences, and amazing similarities between Old and New World species. Salvia is a case in point, it is one of many genus that are present in both continents, irrespective of the presence or absence of others. We should acknowledge however the discovery of fossilized apis in the US, which is a clue that these continents were probably not separate at all at one point. But give enough time, species diverge, as we know.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    417

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post

    The "Thrice out of Africa" paper should be reviewed in the context of this discussion.

    The paper demonstrates that in the process of "Africanization" a significant fraction of diverse genetics are retained in a characteristic and stable proportion. Additionally, the "Iberian-German" sourced genetics become more frequent.
    Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium presumes that this neutral fraction has selective advantage. The hybrid swarm is selected over an isolate.

    Cite:
    Charles W. Whitfield, et al.
    Thrice Out of Africa: Ancient and
    Recent Expansions of the Honey Bee,
    Apis mellifera
    Science 314, 642 (2006);
    Caucasians seem to pretty much disappear in 1997.
    www.apisrustica.com (French-only website) Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens / northern hygienic bees

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    The "Thrice out of Africa" paper should be reviewed in the context of this discussion.
    Not everybody has access to that. By the way, you didn't caption that illustration. At a glance we have no idea what it is attempting to show.

    PLB

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    "The hybrid swarm is selected over an isolate."

    As far as genetic diversity goes, we're working with hybrids anyways.

    So, there might not be too many options to increase genetic diversity besides increasing the number of drones a queen mates with.

    IMHO.

    There has been some speculation on the existence of reproductively isolated populations of Honeybees (Delaney). But, more work needs to be done.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    There has been some speculation on the existence of reproductively isolated populations of Honeybees (Delaney). But, more work needs to be done.
    Not clear where you are headed with this. Jamie Strange homed in on reproductive isolation in a population of native French bees. Reproductive isolation, for those who don't know, is where a species mates in a particular restrictive way. Like bar hopping. If you pick mates by bar hopping, you are likely to mate with a bar hopper, and not someone who doesn't goes to bars, but only dates guys she meets at church.

    If African bees, for example, have particular restrictive mating habits, they will tend not to become diluted through exposure to non Africans. Further, in the crosses that do occur, it is expected that some combinations may tend to become dominant over time. Etc

    PLB

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Peter, we know that Carni and Italian drones fly at different heights from studies for example. Also, some studies have shown that AHB drones fly earlier in the season than EHB.

    My point being, if most of our stocks are hopelessly hybridized, where exactly do we get this putative genetic diversity if not from some reproductively isolated stocks/ferals?

    As I've said, it's more likely that well mated queens make for better colonies than some unidentified source of diversity. They're already hybrids.

Page 2 of 25 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads