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  1. #261
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    5,892

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    WLC:

    You are mixed up. Michael Bush has said repeatedly that he doesn't have any Beeweaver bees. His untreated bees are not Beeweaver bees. Your personal [claimed] experience with Beeweaver stock, or even other apiaries experience with Beeweaver is not related to Mr Bush's bees.


    Are you now withdrawing your "subjective anecdote" comment?
    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  2. #262
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Did Mike ever claim to have well mated hybrids? That's Delaplane's conclusion for healthier colonies.

    Does anyone here have Mike's breeder queens, queens, packages, nucs, or hives?

    We can only objectively evaluate certain commercial stocks.

    Rader, it has to be replicable by others for it to be objectively corroborated.

    If third parties can't do an evaluation, it's a subjective anecdote.

  3. #263
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Lincolnton, NC
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    1,106

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Hi all

    Anyway, if anyone got anything out of this so-called discussion, lucky you. I have heard nothing new, which was my intention in starting the thread. Nothing but the same old unsupported claims. Whatever, good luck y'all. Signing off.

    PLB
    Pete, if you are still lurking around here, how do we support our claims? What documentation or peer review or whatever do we need to prove it? We want to meet this challenge.
    Lawrence Heafner
    15 hives; 15 years; TF for 10; Zone 7B

  4. #264
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    If third parties can't do an evaluation, it's a subjective anecdote.
    So unless you can refer us to third parties that have evaluated your apiary, your claims are just 'a subjective anecdote'.

    Glad we have cleared that up.
    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  5. #265
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    So unless you can refer us to third parties that have evaluated your apiary, your claims are just 'a subjective anecdote'. Glad we have cleared that up.
    No, not my apiary.

    It's an evaluation of resistant TF stocks vis a vis Delaplane's conclusion.

    The BeeWeaver model fits that conclusion. They're also available.

    I'm still evaluating my BeeWeavers.

  6. #266
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Portland, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    240

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    I have to agree with WLC. All those live, treatment free bees flying in & out of my hives with supers nearly full of capped honey don't mean a thing. And since they mean nothing, I can't prove a thing. WOW, I'll be glad when those guys who insist on treating find the answers we're not looking for.
    Beeman
    All things may be lawful; but not all things are advantagous.

  7. #267
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by beeman2009 View Post
    I have to agree with WLC. All those live, treatment free bees flying in & out of my hives with supers nearly full of capped honey don't mean a thing. And since they mean nothing, I can't prove a thing. WOW, I'll be glad when those guys who insist on treating find the answers we're not looking for.
    Which breeder provided your queens beeman2009?

    I know, it was 'mother nature'.

    Here's the thing, we can't evaluate them unless you're selling queens, etc. .

    Also, we know that Daniel Weaver combined his three breeder queen lines and open mates his queens with his yards and the hybrid swarm.

    Can you say that?

    Once again, it's about well mated queens.

    Just don't make them 'too' well mated.

  8. #268
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Portland, Tennessee, USA
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    240

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    No disrespect intended to you WLC because you obviously have given this much thought. But I have to say that the great minds that existed before Columbus' day gave much thought to the fact that the earth was flat. All that thought didn't make it so, did it? Now honestly, why do you or anyone else for that matter, want to tell people who are happy with the success they are having that they are doing it WRONG! Keep your bees the way you see fit and let others do the same! As to my queen breeder, it's me. I am always looking for genetics I want in my bees and bringing them in either through new queens or the drone side. Like I said, no offense, but really some of you guys should back off and focus on your bees, not someone else's that you just buy. Breed your own stock, and if you do that already, that's good. At any rate, I wish you well.
    Beeman
    All things may be lawful; but not all things are advantagous.

  9. #269
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Errr...

    Beeman, I'm in Manhattan. What bees? For all I know, my bees are the only ones to have survived locally.

    Besides, I know that my nearest beekeeping neighbor didn't get resistant replacement bees. But, they don't treat them just the same.

  10. #270
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
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    717

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    A person may have been objective to the best of his ability and sufficiently so to satisfy observers had they been there, however in the absence of wide scrutiny, the observation will still carry the suspicion of subjective influence. That is as it is. Objectivity and subjectivity are hard to tease apart.

    There is a case in law that originated the saying "Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done".

    In many instances before acceptance as "incontrovertible" fact, people insist on compound, double blind trials, even the presence of hostile witness before they are satisfied there is no trickery behind a concept.

    Occasionally we are punished by our skepticism, but overall it pays dividends.

    Frank

  11. #271
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    crofter:

    Legally, all you would have to do is swear to an affidavit.

    But, these kinds of stocks, whether they're TF or from well mated queens, need to be evaluated by multiple beekeepers in different environments.

    I got bees from Texas because I have a serious heat issue. It gets 'Tarzan' hot on that roof. Actually, it's Texas hot.

    Guess what, they were productive last season, and they survived a tough winter. Now, I'll see if they can perform the way I want them to.

    Texas bees doing well in New York City! That's can't be right! At least that what some folks would have you believe.

    That's my evaluation to date.

    Like Juhani was saying, we need to get these resistant stocks out to beekeepers, and see how they do.

    As for the affidavits... eh.

  12. #272

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post

    In many instances before acceptance as "incontrovertible" fact, people insist on compound, double blind trials, even the presence of hostile witness before they are satisfied there is no trickery behind a concept.

    Occasionally we are punished by our skepticism, but overall it pays dividends.
    Yes, I agree and this "blind trial" was the point of PLB too, I think.

    It is however a diffrent thing with animals. A machine either works or not, with animals it is trickier (multiple genes+ environment+).

    I sent 20 queens to Italy. Next year they contacted me again. I asked how did my last year queens do? Their answer was, that out of 20 queens, 17 queens were in hives next spring. And out of them, if i remember it correctly, only 3 were showing promising results in varroa resistance. But because it was more than with another breeders queens (who also claims his queens are varroa resistant), they ordered 60 queens despite I had increased my price from 80 to 120 euros.

    It is impossible to breed a 100% varroa resistant bees in 10 years, not to all environments. I did not execpt my queens to do even that qood in Italy.

    Everything is relative. The main news for me as a breeder was that they did better than the other breeders queens (from France).

    P.S. They promised a report of these 60 in near future.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 04-14-2014 at 09:57 PM. Reason: P.S. added
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  13. #273
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,851

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    120 Euros for a queen!

    Juhani, I think I move to Finland, get some of your queens, a few dozen hives & some nucs & I retire LOL.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #274
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,618

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    If you want to be objective about TF bees, they need to be available to others for evaluation.
    If you want to provide scientifically acceptable data then you have to be a scientist. And you'll spend so much time observing, data gathering and documenting that that will be your main occupation.

    That's why there is so little proper data about tf beekeeping. Scientists won't take a beekeeper's word for what they've done and what the outcome was. Ever. That would be unscientific.

    Attempting to be objective is a good thing; scientific objectivity is something else.

    Data about feral bees is something scientists could do more to study. But anything beekeepers say about feral bees is, in scientific terms, anecdotal. By definition.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #275
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,618

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    The really big question is how are we ever able to distribute varroa resistant material, bred by the pioners, to all beekeepers. We need a plan.
    I don't think that's a way forward - at least not on its own. Several things have to happen at once - and this is likely to occur slowly.

    First there must be an increasing recognition that tf is possible for beekeepers. It'll come in two flavours, with crossover:

    a) with supplied resistant bees;

    b) with home-raised resistant bees.

    Second there must be broad recognition of the main factor that locks beekeepers into treating: that is: treating.

    If you want to move from a) to b) you need to get away from, or overpower, treated drones. That's a reality.

    That's part of a general...

    Three: there must be a broad improvement in levels of education about population husbandry. There is a limited tradition of genetic husbandry in beekeeping, and the model has been thoroughly swamped by books and teaching that ignores it.

    What we need is a better class of beekeeper - one that cares about the future of bees, and is willing to work to understand the nature of the problem and to learn how to keep them properly. Beekeepers who take their art seriously.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  16. #276
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,618

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It's still risky.

    My bees are alive, healthy, and actively foraging, but I can't help but wonder, "What's next?"
    I think that's what you have to live with with your 'bought-in' model.

    You can't get the sorts of qualities you want until and unless you have an effective breeding capability. That's just animal husbandry. Maybe if there were lots of breeders to choose from, especially more local ones, you'd get better results.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 04-15-2014 at 02:55 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  17. #277
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
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    1,618

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Legally, all you would have to do is swear to an affidavit.
    WLC, we're not talking about legalities, we're talking about the rules of scientific investigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    But, these kinds of stocks, whether they're TF or from well mated queens, need to be evaluated by multiple beekeepers in different environments.
    As you suggest the further you get from the climate and environment where the bees were raised (with the help of a local 'hybrid swarm' - I do wish people would put more effort into thinking of good descriptive labels) the less likely it is that the bees will flourish.

    So an effort to raise a superbee capable of flourishing anywhere is doomed from the start.

    (We need multiple local breeders, and the more the better. Some of the pioneers are aware of this need and selflessly aid others to replicate their own efforts.)

    The best that could happen is that reports of successes and failures could be corrollated and analysed to produce data suggestive of where they're likely to flourish.

    That's a huge effort, and can only practically be done by the seller. Which puts us straight into conflict of interest country - never mind anecdote.

    So I can't see a route to scientifically acceptable data that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Like Juhani was saying, we need to get these resistant stocks out to beekeepers, and see how they do.
    What we'll get is a whole bunch of reports, none of which can be trusted. With multiple good reasons. You don't have a route to reliable data that way.

    The scientists are the gatekeepers to reliable data. They have to have access to data they feel is trustworthy. That means: a) properly gathered data from a natural population; b) ditto from a population under their direct control; c) their own surveys of beekeeper reports (which is 'social science' - a lesser species).

    Other than suggesting possible interesting areas of study there isn't much you and I can do to generate the sort of data Peter demands.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 04-15-2014 at 03:31 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  18. #278

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    120 Euros for a queen!
    Not so unusual for a breeder queen. Prices are as follows: unmated queen: 5 Euros. Open mated queen: 15 Euros. Both without any pedigree. Open mated queen, F1-F2 daughter from a breeding queen: 20-30 Euros. Breeder queen, mated on an isolated island with selected drones: 50 Euros. Artificially inseminated queens, also daughters from a breeder queen: 75 Euros. (Pool insemination, means a huge number of selected drones' semen is combined and stirred in a cocktail, then used for insemination.) Good breeder queens range from 100-200 Euros, depending on the breeder and quality. Just numbers of thumb. You won't get rich, though.

  19. #279
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,851

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Oh that changes everything those prices are actually pretty cheap.

    Better stay in NZ LOL.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #280
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,827

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    >You are mixed up. Michael Bush has said repeatedly that he doesn't have any Beeweaver bees. His untreated bees are not Beeweaver bees. Your personal [claimed] experience with Beeweaver stock, or even other apiaries experience with Beeweaver is not related to Mr Bush's bees.

    Thank you. That is correct. I do not.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

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