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  1. #241
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    Jan 2012
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    Roy, Wa
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    I like that Thanks. I like to keep track of who's who and details.

  2. #242

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    The really big question is how are we ever able to distribute varroa resistant material, bred by the pioners, to all beekeepers. We need a plan.

    It is a matter of 10 years to make varroa resistant bees. I suspect it may be done from whatsoever bees. The main component is a stubborn beekeeper, who is not afraid of big losses. It is absolutely ridiculous to say it cannot be done with EHB. The problem in Cenral Europe and all other places tightly populated with bees, is the mite pressure from outside, from neglected beehives.

    Josef Koller, pioner with Primorski bees, from Germany has come up with one idea to solve this problem: Distribution is started from numerous bee yards, taken care by enthusiasts. Seems to me that they are mostly young and beginners. They want a change. The yards we begin with are maybe in some little more remote places. One nuc is made from all surviving hives. Each hive makes its own queen. The queens mate on that place. System is made easy, because we have to consider the average skills of beekeepers. Most are not familiar with grafting and mating hives. Plus we ensure the biggest possible variation in the population. When this first yard has become full, another yards are created in circles around it. Doing so we little by little create a varroa resistant drone zone. Other beekeepers bees around this circle will be getting along with mites a bit easier as the varroa resistant drone zone gets bigger.

    As I said it is just one proposal, but actually one that Josef has been using for a longer time.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  3. #243
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    ceredigion (yes, its a county in West Wales UK)
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    34

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Hi all
    Whatever, good luck y'all. Signing off.
    PLB
    Second flounce in one little thread. Lol.

    Perhaps the truth is that the most virulent and damaging period of the relationship between varroa and Apis melifera is passing quite naturally, and those who deal in absolutes and require cast iron proof are just grasping at straws in perplexity at whats going on. Time will tell, and I for one am putting my money on feral populations bouncing back and beekeepers not needing to treat to keep their bees alive all over the place at roughly the same time, much the same as varroa gained resistance to fluvalinate in many places all at once, parallel or synchronised evolution in action.
    Watch this space.

  4. #244

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by mbc View Post
    Perhaps the truth is that the most virulent and damaging period of the relationship between varroa and Apis melifera is passing quite naturally, .
    I donīt know exactly what do you mean by that, but I just heard, from a local beekeeping advisor, that it has become a normal procedure in Finland to do oxalic acid droppings in spring too.

    So far a combination of August treatments (with thymol or formic acid) and one late oxalic acid dropping has been efficient enough treatment combination. Now it seems, that beekeeprs have to do extra treatment in spring too. This phenomen, that more and more treatments are needed, has happend in Central Europe, if I have understood correctly. I think it is a sign that virusproblems are incresing, maybe partly because there are more and more bee imports every year.

    Maybe you in US are lucky to have wild bees and feral stock as a reservoir, although it seems, reading these conversations, that partly they are just runaway swarms. Maybe in some more remote areas they are real feral survivors. We donīt have them in Finland. Winter is so often so hard, that most of the swarms die, if not the first winter, but quite soon anyway.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  5. #245
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,104

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    >There is ample data available to prove that untreated colonies die.

    My dad is a pretty fair shade tree mechanic (among his many skills). He decided to rebuild the diesel engine in his VW Rabbit. So he carefully marked every part a he disassembled it and carefully put them all back exactly the same when he reassembled it. When he got done it ran, but not very well. After consulting with some mechanic friends, he discovered that he needed to have the timing set and, not wanting to spend the money for the equipment and figure out how to use it, he made an appointment with the local mechanic shop. On the appointed day he drove the Rabbit down to the shop and parked out front. He went in and told the man behind that counter that he had the Rabbit that needed the timing set out front. The man said he would send a tow truck out to get it. My dad said, no need for the tow truck, it's out front. The man looked at the appointment again and said, if you rebuild a diesel engine it won't run until you set the timing, so we will have to go tow it in. My dad again repeated that the car was out front and, while it did not run well, it did run and he had driven it there. The man insisted on sending a tow truck and insisted that it was impossible to drive it there. Finally my dad asked the man if he would please follow him. He lead him to the front window, pointed at the car and said, could you please set the timing on that Rabbit--right there?

    I sometimes feel like my dad did that day...

    The bees are right there and they are still alive after a more than a decade of no treatment... and I am far from the only one--there are thousands of us doing it, so how can people keep insisting that it is impossible?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #246
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Juhani:

    "The really big question is how are we ever able to distribute varroa resistant material, bred by the pioners, to all beekeepers. We need a plan."

    BeeWeaver has already crossed that bridge in 2001 here in the U.S. .

    They've open bred their own Italian/Buckfast stocks (they had three queen lines that they've recently combined into one), with the 'Hybrid Swarm' in Texas.

    They now sell breeder queens, queens, packages, nucs, and hives. They claim to sell resistant, chemical free Honeybees.

    IMHO, they've crossed over the 'edge' of queen breeding. Buckfast/AHB genetics and all.

    As someone who likes the concept of pedigrees, I'd say that they've crossed a line. But, since our own domestic stocks are essentially hybrids, and I do want resistant Honeybees, they fill my immediate needs.

    Of course, I could have gone the VSH route, but replacing queens yearly, rather than as needed, isn't one of my goals.

    Is that what you meant Juhani?

    How do you like their plan?

  7. #247
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Loup City, NE
    Posts
    182

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Post#244 - You got that right Michael!! 4yrs, TF, and the bees ARE still alive.

  8. #248
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    ceredigion (yes, its a county in West Wales UK)
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    , but I just heard, from a local beekeeping advisor, that it has become a normal procedure in Finland to do oxalic acid droppings in spring too.
    .
    There is, of course, a huge difference between bees surviving and pulling through unaided and bees which are managed to reach their top potential in productivity.

  9. #249
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Mike:

    "The bees are right there and they are still alive after a more than a decade of no treatment... and I am far from the only one--there are thousands of us doing it, so how can people keep insisting that it is impossible?"

    That's a subjective anecdote.

    Objectively, it's very difficult to prove any of it.

  10. #250
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,076

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Mike:


    That's a subjective anecdote.

    Objectively, it's very difficult to prove any of it.
    WLC:

    And is your Beeweaver bee experience documented as something more than a "subjective anecdote"? Where are the peer reviewed studies of your 'treatment free' apiary?


    Maybe you are just making it all up ...


    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  11. #251
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    WLC: And is your Beeweaver bee experience documented as something more than a "subjective anecdote"? Where are the peer reviewed studies of your 'treatment free' apiary? Maybe you are just making it all up ...
    Rader, you got it backwards.

    Maybe BeeWeaver made it up.

    That's the whole point of getting them from a chemical free, resistant queen breeder.

    So far, they're inconsistent performers. That's the consensus, and I've already seen some of that (only two colonies established out of 5 queens).

    My contribution to the effort is that I described their behaviors, and I was up front about it.

    Funny thing is, I haven't heard of bees for sale from some of the others claiming success. They're still mere anecdotes.

    PS- the early queen does appear to be well mated with diverse morphotypes present. That's an observation.

  12. #252
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,991

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    So far, they're inconsistent performers. That's the consensus, and I've already seen some of that (only two colonies established out of 5 queens).
    With all due respect I would suggest that is less to do with the queens you bought and more to do with the beekeeper.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Funny thing is, I haven't heard of bees for sale from some of the others claiming success. They're still mere anecdotes.
    Yes, that is the Funny thing. Despite reading of all the successful TF beekeepers and how they claim to be breeding and selling queens, one does not have to read Beesource long to find new beekeepers starting up, complaining that they are unable to get any treatment free bees, despite having contacted people that claim to sell them but never get a reply.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #253
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    "With all due respect I would suggest that is less to do with the queens you bought and more to do with the beekeeper."

    Nope. Two were duds. One was an 'absconder'.

    OT:

    If you want to be objective about TF bees, they need to be available to others for evaluation.

    The evaluations have gone both ways with BeeWeavers for example. That's from beekeepers of all experience levels including PLB, a former NYS bee Apiary Inspector. 7 of 8 of his BeeWeavers went down. He described one as 'unmanageable'.

    Both of my colonies made it through the winter, yet PLB and I installed at the same time.

    Same stock, different results.

  14. #254
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    OK, well in the absence of seeing these hives and what was done, myself, I will have to defer to your opinion.

    But let me ask. Duds? What does that mean? They arrived dead, or what? And absconder? What does that mean? After a successful install she absconded?

    Just curious, not like I'll ever be owning some Beeweavers. But the comments on them from others are overwhelmingly positive, other than just one thing, temperament. However it is also obvious, based on what people report on these bees, that there is still a very wide genetic diversity in their stock and range of bee types. I just hadn't seen an undue number of people having problems introducing the queens.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #255
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    OT:

    BeeWeaver has excellent customer service when it comes to queen replacements. Bar none.

    However, I've noted one queen that couldn't attract any workers. One, clearly wasn't 'clipped' as ordered.

    Besides that, I think that most folks will also notice some 'behavior' issues.

    IMHO, it reflects the current state of the art of chemical free beekeeping.

    It's still risky.

    My bees are alive, healthy, and actively foraging, but I can't help but wonder, "What's next?"

  16. #256
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Besides that, I think that most folks will also notice some 'behavior' issues.
    "
    I'm dubious. Beeweaver will replace any queen that the beekeeper feels is too hot. If most folks were having issues, they would soon be out of business.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  17. #257
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I'm dubious. Beeweaver will replace any queen that the beekeeper feels is too hot. If most folks were having issues, they would soon be out of business.
    Currently, I wouldn't call either colony 'hot'.

    I would characterize their behavior as hybrid.

    Look, Delaplane's whole point is that the way to get healthier colonies is to get well mated queens. I think that BeeWeaver's open mating protocol is doing that with varying degrees of success.

    No man controls the hybrid swarm. That's the downside.

  18. #258
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,419

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    I tried Beeweaver queens about 12 years ago. Queens were initially accepted and then about two to three weeks later found them dead on the ground in front of the hive. Pretty little dot on their back.
    Regards, Barry

  19. #259
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,076

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Rader, you got it backwards.
    I don't think I have anything backwards.

    You were challenging Michael Bush's assertion that his bees were still alive ...
    The bees are right there and they are still alive after a more than a decade of no treatment...
    I was asking what "objective" evidence there is that you have live bees. All we have is your claims. That amounts to the same "subjective anecdote" that you were disdaining.



    ... what is good for the goose is good for the gander ...
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  20. #260
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Rader:

    Objectively, we're reporting different experiences from the same breeder.

    More than one beekeeper has evaluated them.

    If we could do the same with other TF stocks, that would be helpful.

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