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  1. #221
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    I am not dismissing anything.
    That has to be the most inaccurate thing I've ever seen on this forum. You've dismissed almost everything anyone has suggested on this thread - and others. I've never had my suggestions dismissed with such haughty vehemence.

    Inaccuracy is a terrible thing Peter. It leads directly away from truth, or science. Start to think about the accuracy of what you want to say before you write. Or read it back before you send.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    It has nothing to do with references or credentials. I am pointing out that after 20 years, none of the so-called treatment free folks can produced documentation of what they have done. It has nothing to do with references or credentials. I hate to say it but it appears to be simple laziness.
    Its probably mostly because there are more urgent things to do in their lives. And its unnecessary to the task at hand.

    It seems to me Peter that you are flailing about in an attempt to get help to learn how to keep bees without treatments successfully. Instead of repeatedly insulting those who are doing it, you could try asking for help and advice. You could read their book and websites.

    Give up the peer reviewed work for this purpose. It really isn't helpful. Ask the people who do it. On the appropriate forum would be best.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  2. #222
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,086

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Seems to me that people in this Thread are trying to convince others about something they feel strongly about. When one's mind is made up and is emotionally invested no amount of talk will accomplish anything. Have the dogs lost the scent and are no longer barking up the wrong tree, but barking at other dogs in the pack?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  3. #223
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,433

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Right. Six years ago I wrote an article for the American Bee Journal called "Keeping bees without chemicals". I gave a talk on the subject that year to the Empire State Honey Producers Association.

    I no longer offer to give that talk for the simple reason that none of the techniques that I wrote about worked for me in my area. The bees always got mites, sickened and died.

    [snip]

    This is how science works: you produce the data, you explain it, you are subjected to the intense scrutiny of your peers, you are expected to prove it. If you can't prove your claim, you are history.
    Yet according to what you wrote, you explained it first (wrote your article), produced the data (tried it yourself and failed), but haven't been very subjected to intense scrutiny.
    Regards, Barry

  4. #224
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    Ithaca, NY USA
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    1,508

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Yet according to what you wrote, you explained it first (wrote your article), produced the data (tried it yourself and failed), but haven't been very subjected to intense scrutiny.
    There is ample data available to prove that untreated colonies die. I don't need to add to that body of work! Besides, what you say is wrong. I stepped forward, made some statements and invited all comers to criticize them. I even presented many sides of the argument myself. I have reached no conclusion

    But seriously, do you honestly think I am suggesting that different rules apply to what I say? How dishonest would that be? I started this thread, not to brag about anything but to bust the subject wide open and discuss it.That is what people do who are really interested in a subject. If I stepped on anybody's toes in the process, well excuse me!

    PLB

  5. #225
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,106

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    There is ample data available to prove that untreated colonies die.
    Lets postulate for the moment that the statement above is true.



    This is the part - from the same paragraph - that puzzles me.
    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    I have reached no conclusion
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  6. #226
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Treatment free beekeeping is easy. You want a new challenge? Try Sugar free beekeeping. If hives are on constant life support, doesn't really matter if you are treatment free or not. Healthy naturally raised Queens/hives simplifies a lot of problems.

  7. #227
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Loup City, NE
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    182

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    You got that right Tim!!!!!

  8. #228
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,656

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    There is ample data available to prove that untreated colonies die.
    All untreated colonies Peter? You just showed us a peer reviewed paper that shows some colonies lived....? Inaccuracy won't help you make your case.

    What you need to do now is respond to that very fair criticism of your statement. It isn't all colonies is it? Its some. Acknowledge... you are not having a discussion until and unless that is happening.

    Of course some die. We know why, and we know how to reduce their numbers - dramatically. Without resorting to treatments or manipulations. The interesting thing is, why to some die and not others? *How do we get more of the latter and fewer of the former?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Besides, what you say is wrong. I stepped forward, made some statements and invited all comers to criticize them.
    Which they did, and offered statements of their own, which is an invitation for you to offer constructive criticism them in turn, leading to a better understanding between us.

    You haven't answered those criticisms. You have instead, without giving reasons, insulted and ridiculed them.

    You're not playing the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    I started this thread, not to brag about anything but to bust the subject wide open and discuss it.
    Join in the discussion then.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    If I stepped on anybody's toes in the process, well excuse me!
    Insult and ridicule, little attempt at structured replies, ignoring points made against your position .... yes, that qualifies as treading on toes!

    You haven't told us yet how you went about keeping bees treatment free. Suppose we start with that?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  9. #229
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    There is ample data available to prove that untreated colonies die.
    Well, to be fair, there is even more data available to prove that treated colonies die.

    I don't mean to be contentious or insulting, but have the beekeepers who have tried to keep bees without treatment and failed ever considered the possibility that those who have succeeded have different skills and abilities? There must surely be large variations in skill, knowledge and just general instinct among beekeepers. Maybe it isn't that the successful ones are better beekeepers. Maybe it's just that their skills and instincts are better suited to keeping bees without treatment. I know that we all like to think we take a wholly scientific approach to the vocation, but I think there is at least a possibility that beekeeping is also something of an art. Might this help to explain the sometimes widely-differing results obtained by folks in the same area and of similar experience and knowledge?
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  10. #230
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    Jan 2010
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    Ithaca, NY USA
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    There is ample data available to prove that untreated colonies die.

    Lets postulate for the moment that the statement above is true.

    This is the part - from the same paragraph - that puzzles me.

    I have reached no conclusion
    When I see stuff like this I ask myself, has this guy been following the thread? Or is he deliberately misunderstanding? Of course it's true that there is ample data showing untreated colonies die. It's in every text book, every beekeeping course. I have hundreds of photos of dead and dying colonies that were killed by varroa disease, taken when I worked as a bee inspector for NYS. I have no photos of any colonies that lived for more than three years, without treatment. If you are saying untreated bees can survive for up to three years, then fine. We agree.

    When I say I have reached no conclusions, it's because there is also data showing that African bees in Africa, and Africanized bees all over the Americas, don't succumb to varroa. There are also a few examples of isolated populations of European bees surviving. But there is not evidence that these bees are able to survive in other areas, which means that the effect could be environmental. This is not a popularity contest, it is an inquiry as to what evidence is out there. Evidence speaks for itself.

    Is this hard for people to grasp? That there is a difference between blind faith and modern science?

    PLB

  11. #231
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    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,106

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    There is ample data available to prove that untreated colonies die.
    There is also ample data to prove that all treated colonies die!

    Everything dies! Even Beekeepers - whether treated or not. The only question is when.


    When I see stuff like this I ask myself, has this guy been following the thread? Or is he deliberately misunderstanding?







    My point in my earlier post #225 was that if the data "proves" that untreated colonies die but you have reached "no conclusion", what the heck is going on there? Aren't those two statements incompatible with each other?

    If you don't want to explain that inconsistency, that is your choice.

    But if you respond to my comment by suggesting that I somehow haven't been paying attention, or am being deliberately obtuse, well, it quite easy to turn that kind of comment back on you.

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 04-13-2014 at 12:53 PM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  12. #232

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    There are also a few examples of isolated populations of European bees surviving. But there is not evidence that these bees are able to survive in other areas, which means that the effect could be environmental.
    My queens from Finland were found to be varroa resistant 2000 km south in Luxembourg. Their resistance was documented by one of the most respected breeders in Europe. Despite this you are not interested to have my queens for a test?

    Ok, fair enough.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  13. #233
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    I have hundreds of photos of dead and dying colonies that were killed by varroa disease, taken when I worked as a bee inspector for NYS. I have no photos of any colonies that lived for more than three years, without treatment.

    PLB
    How many pictures did you take of treated colonies that were thriving after three years? Do you see the problem with this "evidence?"
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  14. #234
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    339

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Ha... Have plenty of pictures that put treated hives to shame. Mathematically impossible to get treated hives to perform the same as my Untreated and sugarfree hives....

    A hive can only survive 3 years??? Where does this stuff come from?

    Honey bees do a finite number of tasks. Beekeepers do a infinite number, according to what they think the bees should be doing. The better one understands the finite tasks bees do the more infinite your beekeeping shall become...
    Tim Ives

  15. #235
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    Jan 2010
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    Ithaca, NY USA
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Hi all

    I have tried to have a discussion on the aspects of varroa control and natural selection. By now it has digressed to cheap shots at me. Maybe the thread should have its name changed to cheap shots at Pete. Anyway, if anyone got anything out of this so-called discussion, lucky you. I have heard nothing new, which was my intention in starting the thread. Nothing but the same old unsupported claims. Whatever, good luck y'all. Signing off.

    PLB

  16. #236
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,086

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Unrealistic expectations I would say.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  17. #237
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bedford, Indiana, USA
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    192

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    Treatment free beekeeping is easy. You want a new challenge? Try Sugar free beekeeping. If hives are on constant life support, doesn't really matter if you are treatment free or not. Healthy naturally raised Queens/hives simplifies a lot of problems.
    Even healthy hives with good genetics can starve after a bad season, how is that their fault? Anyway, back to the subject at hand...
    Stuart Ratcliff - Beekeeping Journal

  18. #238

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Nothing but the same old unsupported claims. Whatever, good luck y'all. Signing off.
    If the beekeeper is not a scientist, and has not got the education, money, time and equipments needed to scientific work, the only possibility to prove his clims is to send queens to other beekeepers. PLB is not satisfied even with that, documented support from an other beekeeper.

    http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/h...d_PJ_2011.html

    This Pedigree chart is a bit difficult to read if unfamiliar with them. Pedigree is a list of bees used to make offspring that year, first are listed the queens, drones are in in the end, marked which drones are used to which queens. Bee breeder, who has done the evaluation is marked in parentheses after the hive number, mine is JL. Somewhere in the middle, Primorski breeder 150(PJ). Evaluation was made by Paul Jungels 150(PJ), because I sent him 2009 a young queen, just started to lay eggs. Then with small letters "img" , which is "imported mature queen" from JL. Then starts the history of this queen, 09 is the birth year, "hauk" meaning the mating station (my station Haukkamaa) and the drones used are after that (139) Drones were of course evaluated by me, that is why they are marked 139(JL). And so on. In the very end "This colony does not need any varroa treatment." Statement made by maybe the most respected bee breeder in the whole Europe. And a rival to me.

    He has been spreading this queens offspring to other beekeepers, which is also documented in the Pedigree charts. And he has been systematicly inseminating this queens offspring with the best varroa resistant material of his own.

    How on earth can I get a supported claim (the opposite to unsupported) in some other way when the scientist is not interested to make a study?
    He did not even answer with one word to my posts.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 04-14-2014 at 12:14 AM.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  19. #239
    Join Date
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    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    I have tried to have a discussion on the aspects of varroa control and natural selection.
    You did? I raised the issue of natural selection a number of times, and you told me on each occasion there were no similarities between breeding and natural selection, and therefore the topic was not useful.

    It was you who repeatedly tried to shut down any discussion of a connection between varroa control and natural selection! Talk about re-writing of history.

    Still, at least you know now that there is a topic there worthy of consideration. Run with it Peter. Build your understanding of the similarities between what successful (if largely undocumented) tf beekeepers do and what nature does. Recognise the true nature and value of the several thousand year old methods of traditional husbandry. Next time you try tf you might have more success yourself.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 04-14-2014 at 03:16 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  20. #240
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Peter:

    Objectively, all the evidence for TF beekeeping is anecdotal with the exception of AHB.

    But, we know where to look for resistant stocks to test.

    Wasn't Delaplane's original point that well mated queens were a better route to healthier colonies?

    Not really a TF or small cell argument.

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