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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    So, thus far I think that if you decide to re-use mite-failing colonies to make nucs, or just re-queen them, a dose of something to kill adult mites, and maybe removal of drone brood might be a good plan. (The latter would be a definite good thing anyway).
    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    You haven't got it either.

    I'm:

    A) treating nothing

    B) manipulating nothing.
    So. A dose of something plus manipulating drone brood, or treating nothing manipulating nothing. Which?

    I think the influence of treating goes well beyond the royal jelly that is fed to the queen. In my opinion the thing that would most seriously disrupt a true analysis of the hives ability to resist mites would be the effect of residual chemicals in the wax and cocoon material of a brood comb, on the developing larvae.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post

    And then there's the third hypothesis: OT isn't a 'someone' at all. He's a compound, several different people all working together toward the same end - to undermine discussion of resistance raising. That has the further benefit of supplying an explanation for the strange switches we see between posts - from smooth, rational, clever to the reactionary, 'I'm just an 'ol guy bin raisin' bees 50 years' personality.

    It also fits with the odd reluctance to discuss any feature of your own beekeeping. There is no 'you'.
    That's what I call a conspiracy theory! We are now entering the twilight zone.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Yes I'm a compound LOL. But hey, a smooth rational and clever one.

    There is no me? Haven't quite figured that part out yet.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #64

    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Hmm.. Would be nice if I could just order up a few.
    It would, but according to Murphys law our mutual friend, who is coming for a visit in July, is working for MAF...
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    "Oldtimer is now on the naughty step here too. I won't be opening his posts on this thread till 17th April."

    We are talking serious penalties here! Naughty Step, is that similar to short plank?
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I think it's obvious that there would be an impact.
    Sure there's an impact Ray. The question as I see it is do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    If you treat and then requeen a colony, how can you fairly evaluate the performance of that colony? That colony is starting from a basis of fewer mites than the untreated colonies in your yard.
    I'm pretty much resigned to evaluating my colonies with... patience. I want them on stands, left alone for 2-3 years before I consider using them for grafting.

    That's plenty of time for them to acquire and enter into a relationship with mites. And for them to show their qualities against their peers.

    Most of my nuc will be started with low levels of mites. Should I really subject others to high levels just because they are there?

    In any case (depending of time of year) there'll be mites hatching from existing brood in the nucs. So they will be under test conditions from the start. They just won't be unfairly loaded - they won't be subjected to what is in effect an accelerated bond test before she's even got started.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Furthermore, how can you be sure you are not assessing the resistance of that queen to miticides rather than to mites? After all, treatment leaves residues in the wax.
    Again the patience angle. I wouldn't think a single careful treatment is going to have that much effect down the road. I could be wrong. Perhaps a thorough sugar dusting would be better. Does it actually work?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Treatment affects the internal flora of bees and hive; your treated colony with a new queen may have deficits that are not apparent.
    Its probably fair to assume some treatments more than others. I can't think I'd ever put antibiotics or fungicides in a hive. But do miticides really have a huge impact on microflora? All miticides?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    The only rational conclusion is that treatment makes it much more difficult to evaluate the effects of genetics on colony survival, because treatment greatly complicates the analysis of your results.
    Again, I think the patience angle smooths a lot of that away. I don't think the impact needs to be as great as you estimate, and I think what impact there is will recede to zero over a year or two. If a hive is thriving and productive, alone, after three years, it'd be high on my score regardless of its beginnings.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by julysun View Post
    "Oldtimer is now on the naughty step here too. I won't be opening his posts on this thread till 17th April."

    We are talking serious penalties here! Naughty Step, is that similar to short plank?
    You've never met Jo Frost, Supernanny? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DONNgEBAlSE
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    That's what I call a conspiracy theory! We are now entering the twilight zone.
    Its a very modest conspiracy theory. Not up to twilight zone standards at all.

    Interesting though, that you regularly try to pin 'conspiracy theorist' on me. Do you all get allocated strategies? Wouldn't it be more convincing to rotate them?

    I can feel a new thread coming on...

    Mike (UK)

    PS I have to share: what a pleasure it is not to be opening any of oldtimers crazy posts this morning! I'm going to have to do this more often.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Having heard all this before I know you would have had a look Mike

    As to conspiracy theories, now you think Jonathan is part of a plot & gets allocated strategies? Who by? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

    As to the patience thing, if your plan is to wait 3 years before evaluating them I'm pretty sure that you can go ahead & split any way you want without regard to keeping mite numbers balanced. Three years in the future it's not going to matter much anyhow. Of course, 3 years in the future they will probably have different queens. Depending on how much swarming etc the queens could be separated by several generations from the original.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    29 rudely healthy hives without any treatments or manipulations ever

    Mike (UK)
    If this was your claim only 2 weeks ago, seriously, I don't know why you are even considering treating. If all my hives were as healthy as you claim yours are, treating them would not even be crossing my mind..
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 03-31-2014 at 02:38 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    PS I have to share: what a pleasure it is not to be opening any of oldtimers crazy posts this morning! I'm going to have to do this more often.
    I, for one, am going to follow your example (slightly modified), it will be nice to skip those long winded rants . Good Day.
    Last edited by RiodeLobo; 03-31-2014 at 05:14 PM.
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 12 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post

    Interesting though, that you regularly try to pin 'conspiracy theorist' on me. Do you all get allocated strategies? Wouldn't it be more convincing to rotate them?
    If you don't want me to comment on your conspiracy theories, simplest thing would be to avoid posting them. I only point this out as you frequently claim to be a believer in science and evidence based reasoning but your mindset is anything but.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    If you don't want me to comment on your conspiracy theories, simplest thing would be to avoid posting them. I only point this out as you frequently claim to be a believer in science and evidence based reasoning but your mindset is anything but.
    You don't know much about science Jonathon do you? Forming theries to explain phenomena is the starting point. There's no reason at all why that can't include conspiracy theories. Forming testable hyptheses and designing experiments to test them the second bit. That's a bit harder in this case, but I'm working on it!

    A sense of humour would help too! Constructive contributions to the thread topic... well we live in hope.

    How are your untreated bees getting on? Oops, you don't have any do you!

    Seriously now, is the Irish Amm breeding program making any progress toward raising resistance?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Mike let me help you out some, the conspiracy theory is fiction.

    The truth is actually simple, there are people with different opinions to yourself. Unfathomable as that may seem to you.

    So that resolved, as you say, back to topic.

    Which has recently moved from banning discussion of treatment and manipulations, to now discussing, encouraging, and doing them. Which in itself answers your conspiracy theory, fact is sometimes stranger than fiction.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 04-01-2014 at 04:37 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Seriously now, is the Irish Amm breeding program making any progress toward raising resistance?
    Mike (UK)
    One step forward two steps back.

    We had a meeting on Sunday in Port Laois where a modified proposal was discussed. The funding for the major project I wrote about in the Bee World article unfortunately fell through in December so there is a reduced proposal under discussion. This still involves survey work including DNA sampling and involves two Universities - in Galway and Limerick.
    There are samples of 100 bees being collected from all over Ireland, along with colony mite level records, and these are being stored at NUIG for later DNA work when funds are available and a PHD student can be funded to do part of the work.

    This is the contact in NUIG organising the samples and the DNA work.

    You may be intererested to hear that I left one apiary of 10 colonies untreated in the autumn after careful mite sampling which showed a very low level of infestation. I would normally use a thymol treatment between August and September. I used an Oxalic acid trickle in December when colonies were broodless. All are thriving apart from one which had a drone laying queen which I combined with the colony beside it a couple of weeks ago.

    I know the Galtee bee breeding project also left some apiaries untreated after finding low mite levels as well.
    Careful monitoring and treatment when necessary is the route I am going down.

    I wish you luck, but the chances are you will have heavy losses within 12 months as there is unlikely to be anything special about the swarms and ferals you have collected. The vast majority of uk 'feral' colonies are recent swarms so could well be nothing more than escaped Carnica or Buckfast colonies as those are the most common types kept in GB.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    the chances are you will have heavy losses within 12 months as there is unlikely to be anything special about the swarms and ferals you have collected.
    The big losses would only be if he kept his operation treatment free. The decision to treat must have stemmed from that realisation.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The big losses would only be if he kept his operation treatment free. The decision to treat must have stemmed from that realisation.
    I could not possibly comment Agent X Oldtimer.
    Either way, letting colonies die when they could be saved makes no sense.
    Just need to requeen poor performers with daughter queens from the better performers.

    Mike, how do you intend to propagate queens?
    Have you ever grafted?
    Grafting, or Cupkit if you are unfamiliar with grafting, is the way to go.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Mike let me help you out some, the conspiracy theory is fiction.

    The truth is actually simple, there are people with different opinions to yourself. Unfathomable as that may seem to you.

    So that resolved, as you say, back to topic.

    Which has recently moved from banning discussion of treatment and manipulations, to now discussing, encouraging, and doing them. Which in itself answers your conspiracy theory, fact is sometimes stranger than fiction.
    Perhaps we are all in the twilight zone.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Oldtimer,
    What treatment would you recommend in a soft bond approach. My thinking is ideally it would be effective and leave little or no residue in the wax.
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 12 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    OK well there's a number of options but for various reasons I don't use them all, and ALL treatments have some downside. For example the manipulation of drone brood removal did work for me for a time but has now become impractical. Plus for that is no chemical contaminants, minus and what killed it for me is the strict timetable that has to be followed plus the removal of drones that I actually need to be available for mating.

    So what I'm using now is formic acid, administered as a 24 hour flash treatment via a fumeboard. Just done a good % of my hives with it over the last month with excellent results. Plus for that method is no chemical contaminants left in the hive, which is important in my opinion. Second method is oxalic vaporisation, quite a few issues around this so still in the experimental phase however I have just purchased a bulk vaporiser which carries enough OA to do around 25 hives in one shot. And the only other treatment I am currently using is Apivar strips. Reason for this is it is foolproof, ie, a no skills required treatment, and can be used for special cases where other methods for some reason are not appropriate. It can be used in any hive, any season, any weather. Downside, it is a synthetic. However it is non residual, ie, once the active ingredients are out of the strip they have a 1/2 life in the hive of only a few days before breaking down to pretty much harmless metabolites.

    A comment on something else you said, at this time, I do not fit the genuine description of a true soft bond beekeeper (as I understand it), that is because I will treat any hive that needs it. My method at this point is dictated by necessity, a few years ago bees where a hobby but now one way or another bee related income is pretty important to me so I don't allow hives to die any hive will be treated if needed. With only a bit over 100 production hives to choose from I cannot select breeders based on too many critierion, but they are selected on temperament, production, and mite resistance. Because all hives are harvested constantly for both bees, comb, and honey, finding out which hives best meet these criterion is rather subjective, something of a judgement call. However I can say for certain, that the bees this season have shown way less or no mite damage compared to previous seasons and this trend has been going a while, I am sure things are moving the right direction. But having said that, I don't think I have any bees that would survive indefinitely without some form of treatment.

    Hope that was not too long of a rant for you LOL.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Treating within a resistance raising system

    Thank you, I appreciate the information.

    FYI informative is not a rant
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 12 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

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