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  1. #141
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,341

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    >A thing that I don't like about foundationless is that it needs much more care. I have over 30 nucs and it's OK for me but I couldn't imagine a commercial doing this.

    I have about 200 hives and half of my frames are foundationless... it's much less "care" when you have some drawn combs that are straight. A straight drawn comb in the middle makes a lot of difference. A lot of drawn comb makes even more difference. I can't imagine doing 200 hives and wiring wax foundation for all of it. THAT would be too much work.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #142
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,075

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    I simply found foundation to be a waste of money and it slows the bees down. I have fraems with foundation next to foundation less frames in some of my hives. the bees like to never get around to drawing that foundation. In some cases they moved the brood nest up draw out the adjacent fraems to hold honey and completely ignored the foundation.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  3. #143
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Pinellass County, Florida
    Posts
    1,115

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Bees have been making worker,drone,and honey comb
    For many thousand moons
    no Foundation nor Wire

    Why fix it

    IF it ain't Broke

  4. #144

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I have about 200 hives...
    How is the GoPro action cam doing, Michael? Still would love to go around your apiary in a video and see your bees.

  5. #145

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I have 3,000 foundationless frames I'm using.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I have no problems extracting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I have about 200 hives and half of my frames are foundationless...
    THAT would be too much work.
    It would be too much work fixing all the burr and broken comb of hundred hives. When I reached 30 hives I decided to use frames and foundation (had fixed comb hives without frames until then) and after I got hundred hives I knew that was the right decision.

    So with 200 hives, 30 combs each, you are making 20 combs x 5 lbs of honey per comb x 100 hives = 10,000 lbs of honey? Nice. (5,000 lbs extracted from foundationless combs.)

    Where do you sell all that honey to?

  6. #146

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    fraems with foundation next to foundation less frames ...the bees like to never get around to drawing that foundation.
    You certainly have strange bees over the pond. My bees do just fine drawing foundation before drawing natural comb side by side:










    (Note: no frames used. Just two sheets of foundation.)

  7. #147

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!







    As you can see, the foundation is drawn twice as quick as natural comb.

  8. #148

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!









    I am not saying foundationless (or frameless) is not possible. The opposite, you can do it. But it needs extra care, and there are reasons why frames and foundation became so popular in the past.

    Put away all those miracles and myths. Extraction is an issue. Broken comb, especially when moving hives, can be an issue. Burr comb is an issue. Also too much drone cells is an issue. There are a lot of issues. A lot of time consuming issues. You can do it as a hobbyist, or with lots of time. Why not.

  9. #149
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,075

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post

    So with 200 hives, 30 combs each, you are making 20 combs x 5 lbs of honey per comb x 100 hives = 10,000 lbs of honey? Nice. (5,000 lbs extracted from foundationless combs.)
    Where do you get the number 5 lbs for each frame of comb? I was under the impression it takes 5 lbs of honey to make a lb of wax. there is far more than one frame of wax in a lb.

    Even with the that my observations lead me to believe that even if it takes 5 lbs of honey to make a frame of comb it is 5 lbs they will forage because they need it. if they do not it is 5 lbs they will not forage. they will forage to make comb and then forage to fill it. if their is no comb to make they simply forage to fill what comb they have.

    It is also my impression that bees begin preparation to make whatever honey they will make long before they start foraging. All the way back to mid winter early spring when they begin swarm preparations. I suspect it would work best to not change the hive size at all once preparations have begun. second best would be to make the changed pre swarm period.

    I would like to take a large colony, 30 frames of bees or more, through winter then expand them to 60 to 70 frames during that pre swarm build up. Prevent swarming and then see if they are able to fill those 6 to 7 boxes with honey. At present I manage the bees to start as a deep and a medium and build up to a deep and three mediums. I think they do much better than that I simply am behind in having adequate equipment for every hive. I am thinking about going to a double deep with a medium for wintering and then adding another 3 to 4 mediums in the spring.

    I took a 5 over 5 nuc up to 40 fraems of bees this past spring so that does indicate that rate of expansion is possible. Not only would this provide for larger colonies going through winter but also makes my spring swarm prevention measures easier to do. I simply let the bees build up to strength that assure they will swarm. then take their queen away and do not let them rear new queens. The search for cells is time consuming but it works well at keeping those bees in my hives.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  10. #150
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,687

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Quote Originally Posted by tommyt View Post
    Bees have been making worker,drone,and honey comb
    For many thousand moons
    no Foundation nor Wire

    Why fix it

    IF it ain't Broke
    Bees have not been building comb for human's purposes. Frames, foundation, wires, and such help humans deal w/ problems found when extracting combs w/out those things. At one time those things were considered improvements and allowed liquid honey to become the primary product of bee hives managed by humans. It also allowed the reuse of combs.

    It was considered an improvement and was part of the foundation of modern beekeeping laid down in the mid and late 19th century.

    If you find a way better suited to your way of doing things, go for it.

    ps: I thought it was that bees had to consume 8 lbs of honey to produce a pound of wax. Is there a definitive answer? Does the amount change w/ variables in the environment?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  11. #151
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,075

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I thought it was that bees had to consume 8 lbs of honey to produce a pound of wax. Is there a definitive answer? Does the amount change w/ variables in the environment?
    Not that this was addressed to me. but from my opinion the actual amount is irrelevent.

    Lets say you have a colony that will make 100lbs of honey. given all other things such as healthy, population of colony and a flow they will in fact make 100 lbs of honey. if in the course of that they must make ten lbs of wax. they will forage 180 lbs of honey use 80 of it to make wax and still make 100lbs of honey. IF they need to make no wax they still only make 100lbs of honey.

    Now I have not seen the same to be true whee brood is concerned. As far as I can tell bees will not make honey at all unless they have maximized their brood production.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  12. #152
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,523

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Even with the that my observations lead me to believe that even if it takes 5 lbs of honey to make a frame of comb it is 5 lbs they will forage because they need it. if they do not it is 5 lbs they will not forage. they will forage to make comb and then forage to fill it. if their is no comb to make they simply forage to fill what comb they have.
    Appears to me this is irrelevant to what Bernhard quoted MB saying. He's using frames of existing comb, some with foundation and some natural comb.
    Regards, Barry

  13. #153
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,075

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    That's fine I was not referring to anything Bernard quoted. I was referring to what Bernard stated.

    "So with 200 hives, 30 combs each, you are making 20 combs x 5 lbs of honey per comb x 100 hives = 10,000 lbs of honey?"

    I have heard this argument about how much honey is "Lost" do to the need to draw comb. The fact is foundation only reduces the need for wax in a colony by a fraction. Something comparable to the wax that can be rendered from cappings.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  14. #154

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    I said he is making 10,000 lbs of honey. That is not loosing. That is producing. That is a lot for foundationless extracting. I do not know anyone else in the World extracting so much honey from foundationless frames. Must be special equipment Michael is using for extracting.

  15. #155
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,523

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    I have heard this argument about how much honey is "Lost" do to the need to draw comb.
    Read it again. No comb building going on.
    Regards, Barry

  16. #156
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,075

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Okay I get it.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  17. #157
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Daleville, AL
    Posts
    172

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    That makes sense on SO MANY levels...

    Quote Originally Posted by tommyt View Post
    Bees have been making worker,drone,and honey comb
    For many thousand moons
    no Foundation nor Wire

    Why fix it

    IF it ain't Broke
    Three swarms, one queen added to brood from each of two purchased nucs (in deeps) for a total of 6 hives

  18. #158
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Romania, Sibiu
    Posts
    313

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Foundationless or not as long as there is a flow everybody is happy. With this unstable weather I need to feed second time this year. The brood from the second batch of queens just emerged and eat all the honey.
    I've just talked to some more experienced guy near me and he said the honey production is a disaster this year, meaning nothing. The paradox is that vegetation is so green and lush, plenty of flowers everywhere, but probably not much nectar.
    Dfa (Humid continental warm summer climate)

  19. #159
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Greenfield, IN
    Posts
    125

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post

    I have heard this argument about how much honey is "Lost" do to the need to draw comb. The fact is foundation only reduces the need for wax in a colony by a fraction. Something comparable to the wax that can be rendered from cappings.
    Evan though I'm a newbie this makes sense to me. If you are using foundation it is a very small part of the over all equation. The bee's have to draw it out anyway. The only thing I see with going with foundation is it will make a partial frame of comb more durable.

    Greg

  20. #160
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Roanoke, VA
    Posts
    1,503

    Default Re: The Miracle of Going Foundationless!

    I would think the biggest advantage to foundation is that you can put it pretty much anywhere and they will draw out basically worker comb. If you rotate in frames and put it on the sides you will end up with drone comb. If you put it up top you will end up with something in between. When you want to do splits you want to have a lot of worker comb for the splits, and foundation makes that easier. Plus it generally won't break off as Greg just said.

    At least that is what I think, but I haven't used much foundation, so I could be completely wrong. I like knowing that they are not drawing out contaminated comb. The comb they draw may get contaminated over time, but it will take a while. Management is harder, but for a backyard guy it isn't a problem.

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