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  1. #41
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    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    I will check back in in 15 years when I am in my 50s and let you know how it is going... Isn't Odfrank in his 50s? He runs Jumbos.

    If the industry standard was 8 frame mediums for brood and shallows for supers, the all medium crowed would be using all 6 frame shallows today instead of 8 frame mediums.. Or if the Dadant depth became the standard then the same people would be running all deeps. Weight is relative.

    Bro Adam wrote extensively on the topic and his observations concluded that larger and deeper hives produce larger crops then the smaller volume hives... He experimented around with 5-6 different types of hives before settling on the Dadant due to the same bees making larger crops in larger hives.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Also if you are on all mediums and put on a medium super, which they fill in a week, but you can't add another one when you should due to weather or whatever...

    I usually add them four or five at a time... why would you only put on one super?
    Repetitive motion is harder on your joints then weight is. That is why runners blow their knees out and need joint replacements at a higher frequency then the general population. Why throw on 5 boxes when you could just put two deeps on?
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,593

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    >If the industry standard was 8 frame mediums for brood and shallows for supers, the all medium crowed would be using all 6 frame shallows today instead of 8 frame mediums..

    Some organizations recommend 50 pounds for males and 25 pounds for females. OSHA recommends any weight over 75 pounds should be lifted by more than one person. Most recommendations try to discuss HOW you lift, of course, which is a big part of it, but in my experience bee hives are seldom convenient to lift. The other issue is, even if you just pried them apart, the boxes are usually stuck together when you lift them so you're often lifting some of the weight of the box below...

    The generally recommended maximum lifting weight from the CDC and NIOSH is 35 pounds. A 10 frame deep full of honey exceeds this by 157% (257% of that weight) at 90 pounds. An eight frame deep exceeds this by 37% (137% of that weight) at 48 pounds. Everyone probably SHOULD use 8 frame shallows, but I'm happy getting the weight down to 48 pounds or less. It's not a matter of proportion, it's a matter of total weight. Try to buy feed in 100 pound sacks now. That was a standard feed sack when the Langstroth deep came out. It's not anymore because it was not a good idea in the first place. I used to buy 100 pound bags because they came in burlap and I wanted the burlap and I didn't mind the weight at all when I was 20 and doing construction all day... but it was probably not a good idea then either.

    >Bro Adam wrote extensively on the topic and his observations concluded that larger and deeper hives produce larger crops then the smaller volume hives...

    He was comparing one British standard box with an excluder with one Dadant deep box with an excluder. I'm quite certain the Dadant deep box produced more, as the British standard box is too small. But two British standard boxes might have done just as well.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
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    Brazoria County, Texas
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    116

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Sure glad the ACA is law so maybe bigger and heftier is better for all you youngsters.
    time will tell.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Bristol,RI
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    435

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    Repetitive motion is harder on your joints then weight is. That is why runners blow their knees out and need joint replacements at a higher frequency then the general population. Why throw on 5 boxes when you could just put two deeps on?
    got a link for that wild speculation? running is extremely high impact. you are hitting the ground at many times your own weight onto one leg. now look at cycling where you use gears to reduce the impact and be more efficient and your joints are much happier.

    the general population are fat lazy couch potatoes who probably die of heart disease and diabetes before they need any joints replaced anyway.

    I worked in a PT clinic where we'd have guys who were on workers comp. rehabbing. Much of the workout was lifting boxes of different weights with proper technique. It is very easy to use proper technique even over your head with 25lb. you get into the 50+ lb range you would be very hard pressed to keep proper technique.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post

    >Bro Adam wrote extensively on the topic and his observations concluded that larger and deeper hives produce larger crops then the smaller volume hives...

    He was comparing one British standard box with an excluder with one Dadant deep box with an excluder. I'm quite certain the Dadant deep box produced more, as the British standard box is too small. But two British standard boxes might have done just as well.
    A Dadant depth frame has approx 1700 more cells per frame then a lang Deep. For the average queen that can be a day longer per frame if she lays a good pattern. Have you ever watch the queen in an OB hive search for a new place to lay? I speculate that over the course of the season just the time saved by the increase in cells per frame is what accounts for larger hive populations and larger honey crops.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  7. #47
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    Nov 2012
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    Gonzales, Louisiana, USA
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    171

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    ..I speculate that over the course of the season just the time saved by the increase in cells per frame is what accounts for larger hive populations and larger honey crops.
    bluegrass,
    I've just had my OH for about two weeks now, it's 8 medium frames, single stacked. Watched my queen just the other day walk from the bottom of the fourth frame, across the third, and all the way to the top of the second frame in probably about 15 seconds without ever breaking stride when transitioning from one frame to the next. I'm afraid what I observed wouldn't support your speculation...But as long as we're speculating, I'd offer the theory that mediums make it easier for the queen to transition from one side of a frame to the other, more opportunities to cut through to the other side located closer together!

  8. #48
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    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    That is with the hive open and her running for cover... When she is searching for a new place to lay it takes her time to find a suitable place and settle into laying again. Sometimes hrs.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    Gonzales, Louisiana, USA
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    171

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    That is with the hive open and her running for cover... When she is searching for a new place to lay it takes her time to find a suitable place and settle into laying again. Sometimes hrs.
    No, she's really not a runner! As a matter of fact, for the two weeks I've observed her, I've never seen her run or appear hurried in any way. And to clarify, the hive wasn't open, it's an Observation hive...The covers had been off for a significant amount of time and she was just going about her usual business comfortably moving throughout the hive. And as I said, the fact that she had to cross from one medium frame to another, and then another, wasn't even noticeable. Honestly, it surprised me, because I actually thought it would cause her to pause, or hesitate, or reroute, or something....but, nothing at all on either transition.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Wakefield, MA, USA
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    224

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    As described in his book, Bro. Adam experimented first with doubling up the British National hives (to two deeps) and was pleased with the improved results: better crops, stronger colonies, better wintering. He compared this arrangement to the large single-brood chamber hives, and preferred and switched to the latter.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Sorry moot; I missed that it was an OB hive. Going from frame to frame is fine, but does she stop laying on one and immediately start laying on the other? That is what I am referring to.

    The OP wanted opinions other then weight. That is what I got; Cheaper because of less equipment to run, and a Monk who spent his whole life with God and the bees said they produce better.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Bristol,RI
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    435

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Unless they are going to run all deeps then having all mediums lets you put any frame in any box across your whole yard.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    2,783

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    JBJ - no, the 10 deep frames I must search are all in one deep.


    Crazy Roland

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Houston, Texas, USA
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    460

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    I will be 65 in Aug. and I wish I had gone down the path that Mike Bush did. However I currently have 3 hives with 2 10 frame deeps and 3 hives with 3 med. supers for brood chambers (foundation less in med.). The med. boxes are much easier on the back but I was a little concerned over 8 frame box stability here in Houston when hurricane winds hit us so I stuck with the 10 frame units.
    Mike
    N5RWH - 9a

  15. #55
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    Nov 2012
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    Gonzales, Louisiana, USA
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    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    Sorry moot; I missed that it was an OB hive. Going from frame to frame is fine, but does she stop laying on one and immediately start laying on the other? That is what I am referring to.

    The OP wanted opinions other then weight. That is what I got; Cheaper because of less equipment to run, and a Monk who spent his whole life with God and the bees said they produce better.
    No problem bluegrass,
    Concerning the OP's question...I think the "FACTS" are few and pretty straight forward.

    Absolutes:

    Using all mediums will provide a lighter more manageable box weight as well as the benefit of universal frame size, allowing movement of any frame from any box, to any box, in your operation. These two advantages come with a price, literally....It takes more physical equipment (e.g. boxes, frames) to house the same number of bees, therefore your equipment cost are higher.

    Now, maybe I'm missing something, but I think that pretty much sums up the "absolutes". EVERYTHING else mentioned in this thread pretty much falls into a different category... and I'll use your word for that, "speculation".

    All this, they over winter better, or not as good, as just as good.....Or, the queen lays better, or more....Or, it's easier to spot the queen on a medium, or harder on a deep, etc. etc. etc. is PURE SPECULATION and personal opinion. We just as soon start a thread on what's the best color, or the luckiest number....

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
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    2,379

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Quote Originally Posted by Moots View Post
    All this, they over winter better, or not as good, as just as good.....Or, the queen lays better, or more....Or, it's easier to spot the queen on a medium, or harder on a deep, etc. etc. etc. is PURE SPECULATION and personal opinion.
    I've done both....all mediums and and a deep & a medium overwintering. They overwintered equally for me. Now I just use a 10 frame deep and a medium. I just like a deep as it it not as many frames to examine. It is an extremely rare time that I PU a heavy deep. Most of the time that I pick them up, they're empty and I'm reversing. My deeps also have a frame feeder so that brings the number of frames in a deep to 9 sometimes 8. As to inter-changeability of frames, I have no problem sticking a medium frame in a deep at times if need be. The bees will just build some brood comb there that I'll get the next time around.

    If I were starting anew, I'd probably go with 2, 8 frame deeps for brood chambers and 8 frame medium supers. But that's just me.......
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox OA Vaporizer,
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  17. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Coopersville, Michigan
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    260

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    My favorite is still deep horizontal. Expensive to build but why lift boxes at all if you don't have to. Space to feed inside, bees don't get as riled up, and since I build with insulation in the walls no winter prep other than reducing the entrance and checking stores. I put an entrance on either end too so I can make a split in the same box by moving some frames... now I just need to get up the gumption to build more... also worthless if you want to move hives too.

  18. #58
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    Aug 2006
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    Danbury, CT
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    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    My favorite is still deep horizontal. Expensive to build but why lift boxes at all if you don't have to. Space to feed inside, bees don't get as riled up, and since I build with insulation in the walls no winter prep other than reducing the entrance and checking stores. I put an entrance on either end too so I can make a split in the same box by moving some frames... now I just need to get up the gumption to build more... also worthless if you want to move hives too.
    What you describe sounds like a variation on a Dartington hive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ISn4piHiA

    In all reality how often do any of us hobby beekeepers move boxes? If I set up a hive in the spring it doesn't get moved until fall. The only boxes I am puting on are empty and even with a dozen or so hives Super removal is only done a couple of times per hive at most.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Coopersville, Michigan
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    260

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    What you describe sounds like a variation on a Dartington hive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ISn4piHiA

    In all reality how often do any of us hobby beekeepers move boxes? If I set up a hive in the spring it doesn't get moved until fall. The only boxes I am puting on are empty and even with a dozen or so hives Super removal is only done a couple of times per hive at most.
    I looked at the Dartington when I was designing, but you still super it (this was originally intended for someone with a serious back condition and was going to even add a lift assist for the lid). You can see pics here, if you look close you can see the walls/roof are constructed with a 1" styrofoam core.
    http://2people40acres.wordpress.com/...eebeer-update/

    As to moving boxes, I guess it just depends whether you are talking about moving them to a new location, which is what I was referring to, or just stacking and unstacking them. I move them quite frequently for inspections. This way I just lift the lid and whatever inner cover I need to pop open.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Lansdowne, Ontario, Canada
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    16

    Default Re: deeps vs mediums

    This thread has certainly taken on a life of its own. Lots of great information and I appreciate all the insight and suggestions.

    I realize now that asking "deeps or mediums?" is right up there with "chevy or ford?" or "coke or pepsi?", everyone has their own thing and once someone picks a side it can be hard to get them to reverse course.

    For me, I think I am going to go with 10 frame mediums this year, I might switch to 8's next year, have to think on that. I am doing this as a hobby at the moment, I have had enough of employees and at this point in my life and don't plan to ever have them again, so I only want as many hives as myself and my family can manage. Equipment costs for me are not really a determining factor, I have access to trees, a sawmill, and I am a carpenter, so an extra box or 3 per hive is not a big deal.

    Thanks to everyone for giving me things to consider.
    start of 2nd year - soon to be 3 hives - zone 5a according to new USDA stats, but feels like 4a

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