Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 86
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,996

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I'm still waiting to hear: what bearing on the business of raising 'bees that can cope with disease themselves' does this have?
    Why when that was not your question I responded to? My response was to your statements showing ignorance of the topic of the moment, being "swarminess". In particular the way it was used and encouraged in the past, your clearly displayed a lack of understanding.

    So, I posted a video to help with that, but you 1. tried to argue your way out of watching it, and now 2. say it does not answer some totally different question to the one you raised at the time.

    It is clear that you are simply arguing with all comers, just for the sake of it. You are also trying to create confusion and obtusification to avoid confronting or learning anything, plus keep a circuitous argument going for no good purpose.

    While in some things you are correct if rather one eyed, I can see why support for your views, and for the idea you tried to float of yourself becoming a moderator, went down like a lead balloon, people just are not bothered with some of the methods, and tricks, used to try to manipulate public opinion, they are not working.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,996

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Maybe there should be some fact checking before we build on that assumption.

    Mike (UK)
    What assumption?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #63
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    No mention of all stocks being killed.
    Eh? What does this say (right above your quote):

    "We can talk about the long history of animal husbandry, but with bees,it wasn't so long ago that beekeepers had to destroy a colony to harvest honey. "

    What does "destroy a colony " mean if not kill the stock?

    This is the part I find difficult to swallow - and all my remarks have been made in this context - historical circumstances of the sort Ray is talking about. It was in this context that I spoke about it not making sense to destroy the stocks.

    Because: at this time I would doubt replacements could be found next spring that would outperform overwintered stocks. That's the picture we saw in the German video, and yes its relatively modern, but the uncertainty and economic factors would be similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    You used the fact that Manley took to driving bees in his early years to support your claim that bees were driven, not killed, despite his own reference to skeppists killing bees that I quoted
    Yes, honey farming page 16: "Every village had two or three skeppists, and most of them would let you have the bees that were to be 'taken up' rather than kill them."

    This doesn't say 'kill them all' It says 'some were to be killed'. Sure, every skep has to be cleared of bees ('drove') and the brood and emerging bees inside killed. It might often pay to kill some of the flying bees (that would depend on individual circumstances).

    But what I want to know - that is see historical evidence for, and have explained to me - is: does it pay to eliminate all, or most stocks in the autumn?

    We have to bear in mind that cheap sugar wasn't available, and honey was too valuable to waste on bees. That works in your favour.

    But is it really the case that all colonies were destroyed and next year's crops became reliant on catching early feral swarms in the spring? Or were a selection of skeps overwintered and relied upon to produce swarms next spring? Did skeppists really not know how to make splits?

    Just what is it you're asking me to believe? I don't think yet you're presented compelling evidence for destruction of all colonies, in all situations, and it doesn't make sense to me.

    That seems to be what you are saying. If you can back this up with evidence, if we can rebuild a picture of the year-round operation, in which all, or most are killed, then we will be in a position to ask how a greater or lesser proclivity toward swarming might be regarded. And we'd have to ask how widespread the methods you propose were.

    This is Nutt's quote:
    "51 Ancient as well as modern Bee-keepers have frequently adopted the plan of eking, that isplacing three or four rounds (called an eke) under their hives. This method of enlarging a hive does in many instances prevent swarming during the first season. Notwithstanding, from all that I can see in it, it tends only to put off the evil day, and to accumulate greater numbers for destruction the following year. This is certain, because on minute examination of the pavilion of nature, we see an increase of wealth, as well as an increase of numbers in the state; but there is no provision or contrivance in the conunon hive for dividing the produce of the labours of those numbers: eking will not do it, eking enlarges the hive, and that is all it does; consequently to get at their honey, the necessity for destroying the Bees folio ws,and the suffocating fumes of brimstone at length br|ng these worthies to the groundto the unwelcome pit in which they are buried, and are, alas, no more! a few minutes close the existence of thousands that had laboured for their ungrateful masters; and their once happy domicile becomes a scene of murder, of plunder, and of devastation, which is a disgrace to Bee-masters"

    There is nothing here to suggest that queens are being lost. It makes sense to me to understand that in both this and Manley's text bee numbers are being reduced - to a state where the colony can be overwintered on minimal stores - on comb and honey built and gathered late in the year - ready to build again the next spring.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-23-2014 at 05:34 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  4. #64
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    At one time, beekeepers did destroy their bees(crop)
    The honey is the crop Barry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    but then the movable frame came to be and no longer was it necessary to destroy the bees in order to harvest the honey.
    It was no longer necessary to destroy the comb to get at the honey. The colony could always be preserved by driving. Colonies could be reduced in size if that was thought desirable. And yes they could have been killed if that was thought desirable. The only circumstances I can think of where that would be desirable are:

    a) too many colonies (as a result of swarm collecting)

    b) too late in the year for them to build new comb and store to overwinter

    c) inadequate weathering for overwintering

    d) a desire to take out weak performers for selective breeding purposes

    I know the assumptions. What I'm trying to get to are the historical facts, and, in their absence, a good likely interpretation of the evidence, and an idea of the range of applicability of any conclusions we might reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Now we have some who "destroy" the bees and start over with bees every year. It might make economic sense, as long as everything goes right. It seems a bit like placing all your eggs in one basket. If your supplier ends up having problems, you end up having problems.
    And was always thus. Do we really think all pre-frame hive beekeepers threw caution to the wind, and risked having no bees and no crop next year?

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-23-2014 at 06:22 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  5. #65
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Before skeps, the ancients used ceramic tube hives. They could harvest honey from the back of the tube without having to disturb the broodnest area in the front of the tube.
    Just now I can't think of a good reason why skeppists shouldn't do the same.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  6. #66
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It is clear that you are simply arguing with all comers, just for the sake of it.
    When I was studying classics during my Ba I learned that the only proper way to approach history is by interrogating the evidence. That is: you find as many ways as you can to access the evidence (primary and secondary literature, archaeology, anything else you can think of) and then you try to rebuild the circumstances that contextualise what it is you want to learn about.

    That's what I'm doing.

    One of the things you don't do is simply accept the common knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You are also trying to create confusion and obtusification to avoid confronting or learning anything, plus keep a circuitous argument going for no good purpose.
    Why do the words pot, kettle and black spring so very clearly to mind?

    "obtusification" eh? (Google: 1190 results) And you accuse me of making words up? I got 40,000 backers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    [...] some of the methods, and tricks, used to try to manipulate public opinion.
    Pot, black and kettle cubed!

    More interestingly: more and more Oldtimer seems to me to be a committee. Sometimes he's lucid, razorsharp even. Othertimes he can't compose a clear sentence. Will the real Oldtimer please stand up?
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-23-2014 at 06:25 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Mike:

    Here's a link to an article describing one version of tube hives found at an archeological site in Israel:

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0904114558.htm

    40cm X 80cm clay/straw, unbaked tubes.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,996

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Why do the words pot, kettle and black spring so very clearly to mind?
    No idea in this case maybe you judging others by yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Oldtimer seems to me to be a committee.
    LOL now I'm a committee. You keep trying to categorise me, same as you try to categorise your version of theory of evolution.

    But hey

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Maybe there should be some fact checking before we build on that assumption.

    Mike (UK)
    What assumption? Seems you are continually scared to answer cos the original statement was not thought through properly?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #69
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    [QUOTE=WLC;1077181]Mike:

    Here's a link to an article describing one version of tube hives found at an archeological site in Israel:

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0904114558.htm[quote]

    Interesting. Does it tell us anything about how to keep bees that can cope with disease on their own?

    Maybe someone should start another thread. I think what the questioners are trying to get to is a reason to say that making increase artificially upsets the swarming propensity of bee populations, and that is bad, so bad in fact that it should rule out any artificial increase, and thereby rule out any selective propagation.

    Its a theory. But I think it should have its own thread. This one is about clarifying 'Treatment Free'.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,996

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    But I think it should have its own thread. This one is about clarifying 'Treatment Free'.

    Mike (UK)
    Really? Most of it's been same as every Bispham thread. Off topic & confrontational.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #71
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    What assumption?
    I think the sharper member/s of your committee will understand that we are exploring the matter with a view to discovering just what are, and are not, assumptions. Perhaps you could have that member explain it to the present member.
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-23-2014 at 06:53 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  12. #72
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Off topic


    Hahaha!
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,996

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Since I don't understand your assumption I am hardly in a position to explain it, am I.

    That's why I asking you to explain it.

    But, just being given the run around by obtusification, one of your common avoidance techniques. What are you afraid of? You can't explain yourself?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #74
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Since I don't understand your assumption
    See my reply post #71

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    What are you afraid of?
    Being sucked into a nonsense dialogue with what appears to be a committee whose apparent reason for being is...

    "trying to create confusion and obtusification"

    ...in relation to the effort to find the best ways of: how to keep bees by letting them cope with disease on their own..

    That's what this forum is for.
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-23-2014 at 06:59 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,996

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    Well no, that's just another tactic typical in a Bispham thread, avoidance of answering questions perceived as too hard. You do it a lot.

    In this case I'm asking you to explain what assumption you referred to, but you seem unable. Don't worry. Same thing happens to lots of people who allow their mouth to run away with them.

    But hey, if you do figure out what you were talking about please let's know.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    O.K. Mike, but here's one last link to an article with a nice photo of a stack of tube hives found at an archeological site:

    http://www.rehov.org/Rehov/publicati...ity%202008.pdf

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,996

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    WLC, Mike has already dismissed the relevance of your tube hives in post 69

    And when he flat refuses to even explain his own statements (admittedly cos he was shooting his mouth of and now realises he was wrong), you got no show with yours.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    OT:

    He bought up the 'skep' issue. I just wanted to show that at least some of the ancients practiced a more sustainable form of beekeeping. In fact, I believe from what I've read that the clay/straw, tube beehives are still in use in some parts of the Mideast.

    While current laws prohibit the practice here, I can see the appeal in using tube hives which can be made from readily available materials.

    Clay, sand, straw, water, and Honeybees are the main requirements.

    They still build with adobe in the SW.
    Last edited by WLC; 03-23-2014 at 08:10 AM.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    >Did skeppists really not know how to make splits?

    Good grief.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    DesAllemands, Lousiana
    Posts
    212

    Default Re: Clarifying 'Treatment Free'

    It always seems that the treatment free forum always has the most conflict.
    I read this entire subject and it seems everyone is putting mike down for trying to develop good resistant stock. Maybe he can and maybe he cant but is this not the whole purpose of the treatment free forum.
    Keep doing what your doing mike people will have to do it eventually.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads