View Poll Results: Please give your preference

Voters
53. You may not vote on this poll
  • The rules of this forum are fine how they are

    52 98.11%
  • the rules are fine but manipulations such as MDA splitter should not be allowed to be discussed on the forum

    0 0%
  • If you chose option 2, should manipulations to control mites have to be discussed in the general forum

    1 1.89%
  • If you chose option 2 should there be an extra section set up where manipulation cannot be discussed so it can still be discussed here

    0 0%
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Thread: Rules Poll

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,017

    Default Rules Poll

    Non binding of course, just to find out how people feel. If you vote your details will not be shown nobody will know how you voted.

    What is my interest some may ask? I am not a bond beekeeper and doubt I will go down that path again any time soon. But long term goal is still to be treatment free or if that just cannot be done, at least less treatment (and making progress there) so I do have an interest in how things can be discussed on the treatment free forum.

    That I disagree with Mike on nearly everything is another matter, I have useful discussions with nearly everyone else, and have learned a lot here.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 03-15-2014 at 09:32 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    I choose option 5.

    Enough with rules being shoved down our throats via polls.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    If you want to exclude any pest control method whatsoever, then there wouldn't be much to talk about, would there? Beekeeping is pretty much turned into bee watching. While I understand the way some people feel about what is "treatment free" and what isn't, and how practices such as drone brood bait fit in there, but from a forum point of view, if these things are discarded as not being "treatment free", then there doesn't seem to be anything left to talk about in the "treatment free" subforum.
    www.apisrustica.com (French-only website) Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens / northern hygienic bees

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,017

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    Good points but DO remember this poll is not binding I don't even have permission to run it. The poll will give an indication of numbers and comments will disclose reasons.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #5

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    from a forum point of view, if these things are discarded as not being "treatment free", then there doesn't seem to be anything left to talk about in the "treatment free" subforum.
    And yet the concept of an idealistic forum has been the fodder of debate in the past. I am in agreement....if you remove everything else....there isn't anything left to discuss....and the forum simply becomes a pulpit for the purists.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    1,567

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    what is mda splitters method.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Midland, MI
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    mdasplitter.com has information on it, but it is a splitting/queen rearing method that not only works for splitting and increases, but is timed so that the bees have a brood break and then outperform the mites in reporduction for a while, so it is a mite treatment that is chemical free. otehrs can argue about whether it is a treatment or not. I view it as a method of increase.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,673

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    The questions presume things that are not part of my case, and are all too obviously phrased in a manner designed to provoke a negative result.

    I won't be voting on a poll designed by somebody who's repeatedly demonstrated interest is to prevent constructive discussion of resistance raising.

    The continuing 'confusion' as to what this is all about is all too apparent btw in KPeakock's post above this one. Whether its deliberate or just innocent confusion I don't know. But it scrambles any attempt to have a clear conversation. In my proposed section the moderator would delete it as off-topic. And this entire mischievious exercise with it.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-15-2014 at 01:18 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,017

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    The questions are as plain and straight forward as I could make them. So is the response by the looks.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,333

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    I was surprised when the OA topic was shut down. I was surprised when a post I put up giving prices that came from a website was removed (I don't sell on this forum). I am not surprised, or upset, when rude posts attacking others beliefs or character are removed.
    Why are some informative topics banned from this forum?
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,333

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    Can it not be discussed on the forum? If so seems plain ridiculous.
    If the issue is not knowing what category something best simply set up a miscellaneous one...for all the stuff that doesn't fit without getting someone's feathers ruffled.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPeacock View Post
    mdasplitter.com has information on it, but it is a splitting/queen rearing method that not only works for splitting and increases, but is timed so that the bees have a brood break and then outperform the mites in reporduction for a while, so it is a mite treatment that is chemical free. otehrs can argue about whether it is a treatment or not. I view it as a method of increase.
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,017

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    Yes under the current rules it can be discussed, it does not meet the current definition of a treatment it is classed as a manipulation.

    In fact it has been discussed on a number of occasions.

    The OA discussion(s) were allowed for a time but shut down when they got abusive the moderator had no real options.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,212

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    Some things are ambiguous. This poll is not.

    There are three ways to raise bees without treatments. Genetics, manipulations, and oops, they're dead. Any chemical treatment of any kind pretty obviously is not "treatment free". Maybe your poll should be to ask if this should be the treatment free manipulation free forum.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    Perhaps we should discuss 'manipulation.' Does this mean no working the bees at all Warre style or just MDA etc. style?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Some things are ambiguous. This poll is not.

    Maybe your poll should be to ask if this should be the treatment free manipulation free forum.
    How can bees be kept without manipulations?
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,335

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    > How can bees be kept without manipulations?

    Step 1: Find bees in a tree.
    Step 2: Leave bees in the tree.
    Step 3: Do nothing else.




    ... wow ... the status quo vote now exceeds 97% ...
    . . . . . is there a trend developing? . . . .
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baker Oregon
    Posts
    2,408

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    How about we stop all this drama, which reaches the level where it is insulting to teenage girls, to call it teenage girls drama. The truth is I could not care less what any of you define as treatments. What I DO care about is moving along the path to treatment free beekeeping, and acknowledge that there are multiple paths, and do not judge anyone for how they proceed. However I am so tired of digging through the mud in hopes of finding a gem.

    Note: I have upmost respect for Oldtimer and value his words and experience above most. My feelings on the current state of the forum are a reflection of the recent history of the posts in general, and not of this one in particular. It has become tedious, negitive and worst of all uninformative.

    Good Day
    Last edited by RiodeLobo; 03-15-2014 at 11:09 PM.
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 12 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO United States
    Posts
    386

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    [QUOTE=RiodeLobo;1073803]How about we stop all this drama, which reaches the level where it is insulting to teenage girls, to call it teenage girls drama. The truth is I could not care less what any of you define as treatments. What I DO care about is moving along the path to treatment free beekeeping, and acknowledge that there are multiple paths, and do not judge anyone for how they proceed. However I am so tired of digging through the mud in hopes of finding a gem.

    Note: I have upmost respect for Oldtimer and value his words and experience above most. My feelings on the current state of the forum are a reflection of the recent history of the posts in general, and not of this one in particular. It has become tedious, negitive and worst of all uninformative.

    Good Day[/QUOTE

    and respect for all informative posters. Are these really my only options?
    Please excuse me, I am now free to go manage & treat :)
    my ladies the best way I know how.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,673

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    > [COLOR=#333333]How can bees be kept without manipulations?
    As everybody here knows very well - but some people like to make mischief...

    'Manipulations' in THIS CONTEXT means actions designed specifically to allow bees that would otherwise - die due to an inability to defend themselves against mites - to remain alive.

    Some people like to perpetuate mite vulnerable bees but seem to feel better in themselves if they can do it without treating them with oils or chemicals or 'natural substances'.

    In the medium and long term there's no difference. Its all perpetuating loser bees.

    We can have fun but lets try to keep the stupidity to a minimum at least.
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-16-2014 at 06:23 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: Rules Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post

    In the medium and long term there's no difference. Its all perpetuating loser bees.
    Not at all.. If you can maintain the mites at a tolerable level the bees get exposed to lower viral loads which their immune systems can deal with... Over time they can develop immunity that helps them tolerate heavier loads without manipulations.

    What weaver did with chemical treatments is the same concept as controlling mites with manipulations. By slowly using less and less chemicals they controlled the mite loads at tolorable levels until the bees developed enough immunity to handle them on their own.

    When the Europeans came to North America they brought small pox with them. Many of the Men who came had enough immunity that they could handle infected linens without becoming infected themselves. But the native populations would become infected and die from the same linens. So they gave the linens to local native tribes and wiped them out. The first documented case of biological warfare.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

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