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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Noooo, according to Sol, it's treatment-free.
    Try to get this Barry:

    Its about having an ability to discuss resistance raising in pursuit of a sustainable and meaningful version of 'treatment-free'.

    Try to get this:

    When you and Solomon say 'treatment-free' you are talking about fundamentally different approaches.

    That is where the problem lies.

    That is what I'm trying to show you.

    If when I said 'car' you thought I meant 'train', and vice-versa, and we were making arrangements to travel together, we'd get in a pickle, wouldn't we?

    The forum is in a pickle. Some of us are trying to make clear why, and propose routes out. (Others can't see the problem/don't want a way out)

    You can play talking-at-cross-purposes for ever. Or you can have a place where sensible people can have valuable discussions. Its your call.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-14-2014 at 03:24 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,696

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    That post would indicate you are confused. Barry's and Solomon's approach to TF beekeeping are very similar.

    Barry though is more open minded compared to your "my way or the highway" approach, and that is probably an essential attribute to building the world leading site Beesource has become. An ability to be open to more approaches than just ones own is also a sign of greater intellect.

    Alienating everyone will not carry the day here is a book you could benefit from http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friend.../dp/0671027034
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 03-14-2014 at 03:30 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,288

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Having an entire forum to discuss "Put Honeybees in a box, and don't treat them." is kinda 'daft'.

    The 'narrative' itself revolves around only one selection method, and it's not even a primary method to select for resistance.

    Not treating for resistant Honeybees is the last thing to do, not the first.

  4. #84
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Having an entire forum to discuss "Put Honeybees in a box, and don't treat them." is kinda 'daft'.

    The 'narrative' itself revolves around only one selection method, and it's not even a primary method to select for resistance.

    Not treating for resistant Honeybees is the last thing to do, not the first.
    Not exactly sure what the target is here, but I can clarify my position.

    Not very long ago in-apiary selective propagation formed the basis of all successful apiaries in the UK. It was simply a version of traditional husbandry as used in all farming and horticultural practice from their beginnings in history. It wasn't complicated, but it was specialised, and required an understanding of some of the basics of population husbandry, and careful application of that undertanding to apiary operations.

    It supplied, on the whole, a stand-alone method by which good health, vitality and productivity could be maintained.

    It fell apart when varroa arrived - not because it couldn't work, but because the cost of straight application was too high (in losses) and, as importantly, most people believed it wouldn't work. This idea that it might well take thousands, or tens of thousands of years for bees to adapt, dominated the thinking. And the agi-chems weren't slow to recognise their stock-in-trade - addictive circumstances, and had the lobbyists in place to make their agenda the driver of policy, and supply supporting narratives.

    We now know that wasn't the case: that adaptation is straightfoward, and that traditional husbandry - traditional beekeeping - supplies not just a viable, but the the only truly sustainable model for beekeeping. And we'd like to be able to talk about it, and work our way through the principles, opportunities and difficulties, both for ourselves, and for the benefit of others worldwide. The traditional approach has great merit, and people all over the world should be able to see that.

    Given that it was a successful way of keeping bees for tens of thousands of years, and that it worked right up to the point where people starting thinking it was a good idea to medicate an open-mating organism, it seems reasonable to suggest that it - traditional husbandry - deserves to be in a category of its own. It deserves a forum of its own. Its bigger, better, more useful than 'treatment free'.

    To reply to one point above: It doesn't dictate methods in terms of transitioning. It recognizes that 'live and let die' doesn't suit everybody.

    'Traditional Selective Husbandry' describes a the natural category under which selection, treatments, manipulations, all find their proper place. From the perspectives offered by its principles of action we can see how to use them while still maintaining the over-riding objective - to gain self-sufficient, vital, productive, mite-tolerant virus resistant bees.

    I say 'we'... of course - of course - there are people who will disagree.

    The point is: do we want continue to allow them to prohibit the discussion, the exploration?

    Only the owner and moderator can answer that question.

    The only question I can put is: does that outline describe something preferable to what we have now?

    Maybe its the case that forums, like bees, either grow or die?

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-14-2014 at 05:23 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    413

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    The high costs of such a program can be offset by keeping track of mite counts, and treating hives that exceed a certain standard while eliminating its queen and placing a daughter from a more performant hive. This way, you cut colony loss costs while still eliminating inadequate genetics.
    www.apisrustica.com (French-only website) Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens / northern hygienic bees

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,245

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Don't know about you SP but I've been a beekeeper (off and on) and studying the problem of varroa for about 20 years.

    Mike (UK)
    .
    just starting my fifth season here mike. what progress can you report for your twenty year investment into the problem of varroa?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,303

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I want to break out with a clear focus on raising resistance, premised on the notion that that is do-able (and therefore posts challenging that premise are off-topic) and the built-in capacity to stop off-topic disruptions.
    I'm still struggling to understand your need. It still looks to me that you're wanting a closed group of like minded people to freely discuss your ideas about TF beekeeping by restricting all opposing views. Wouldn't it be easier if we all just read your web pages?
    Regards, Barry

  8. #88
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    Dec 1999
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I agree whole heartedly with Solomon when it comes to beekeeping.
    Yet he calls his FB group Treatment-Free Beekeeping! Notice the focus on treatments! Sol is the one who put together the rules for this forum.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #89
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    When you and Solomon say 'treatment-free' you are talking about fundamentally different approaches.
    Provide quotes that prove this.

    That is what I'm trying to show you.
    Please do.

    The forum is in a pickle. Some of us are trying to make clear why, and propose routes out. (Others can't see the problem/don't want a way out)
    Let's get a handle on this. How many are "some of us"? How many are "others"?

    You can play talking-at-cross-purposes for ever. Or you can have a place where sensible people can have valuable discussions. Its your call.
    Perhaps another way to look at this is to see what options you have. I don't set the agenda/content/focus of what gets discussed in the forum. I also don't get into policing "sensibility" on the forum. If you don't think the TF forum is the right place to discuss breeding resistance, then take it to the Queen and Bee Breeding forum. The problem isn't the lack of a place for discussion, the problem as I see it is that you don't want anyone challenging your ideas and beliefs. Perhaps a private group would serve you best. That's just not how it works here.
    Regards, Barry

  10. #90
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    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
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    5,033

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    It still looks to me that you're wanting a closed group of like minded people to freely discuss your ideas about TF beekeeping by restricting all opposing views.
    Thus I have provided a sensible option, an open group of like minded people who can freely discuss ideas about TF beekeeping without need of restriction of opposing views because they are already like minded. The biggest arguments we have are whether or not to feed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Yet he calls his FB group Treatment-Free Beekeeping! Notice the focus on treatments! Sol is the one who put together the rules for this forum.
    I'd love to call it "Beekeeping," but that's not the nature of the world today. The stated purpose of the group is: "A group for study, discussion, and promotion of treatment-free beekeeping." A group can't very well be like-minded in promotion of something if the most vociferous denizens of your association actually oppose the proposition. Here is discussion only. There is study, discussion, and promotion, thus a well defined purpose and little vitriol. So in that sense, this forum is a rousing success, producing all sorts of discussion, however with it discord, vitriol, and anger. It can hardly be argued that there is much promotion.

    Secondly, at risk of banning for repeating myself I'll say that the list of treatments was actually created by Barry, I wrote the definition (anonymously), and it was voted upon by the users of the forum. It has been such a success as to remain virtually unchanged in three years, even long after my tenure as moderator was ended. My own definition is a bit stricter as I said in the beginning, but I sought an amenable solution. I still count this forum's definition set as a huge success and use a mildly modified version on my own website.



    As to the topic of this thread, Mike, you're asking too much. This is a forum. It's for discussion. That's all you're going to get. The best you do with the existing framework is to block people who oppose your views or at least those won't discuss honorably. Uncluttered, you can have some pretty reasonable discussions, at least to your view. So it works unless you're concerned with what it looks like on the outside.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  11. #91

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Thus I have provided a sensible option, an open group of like minded people who can freely discuss ideas about TF beekeeping without need of restriction of opposing views
    If I understand this....the purpose is for you folks to slap one another on the back and pump a load of sunshine. A lot of useful information in that, I'm thinkin'.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    If I understand this....
    Obviously not.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #93

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Obviously not.
    How could I have missed it....so obvious. It's a place where people can go to slap Solomon Parker on the back while he pumps a load of sunshine. Pump on Sol!
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  14. #94
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Sounds like you need some sunshine Dan. Come slap me on the back, you'll feel so much better.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
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    393

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Not very long ago in-apiary selective propagation formed the basis of all successful apiaries in the UK. It was simply a version of traditional husbandry as used in all farming and horticultural practice from their beginnings in history. It wasn't complicated, but it was specialised, and required an understanding of some of the basics of population husbandry, and careful application of that undertanding to apiary operations.
    In my experience the vast majority of hobby beekeepers in the uk did no active selection whatsoever before varroa arrived and they still don't do any now that we have mites.
    The commercial guys bought in queens from wherever as and when they needed them.
    I don't recognise these halcyon days of good natural husbandry.
    In my opinion bees are getting more swarmy as beekeepers tend to propagate colonies from any old queen cells they happen to come across as opposed to grafting larvae from non swarmy stock. Nothing careful or specialised about that practice.
    This vision you describe never existed in the UK as far as I can see other than among a very few non run of the mill beekeepers.
    Pre varroa, hobbyists let their bees swarm then tried to retrieve the swarm and today it is much the same but the bees are usually treated.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
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    335

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    I don't recognise these halcyon days of good natural husbandry.
    Perhaps it was the days before varroa, when the bees were often treated for Acarine with substances like Folbex strips, Methyl salicylate, Frow mixture,Smouldering creosote, etc.
    Last edited by beekuk; 03-14-2014 at 11:54 AM.

  17. #97
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    Nov 2009
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    Belfast, Ireland
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    393

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    yep. My grandfather used oil of wintergreen and other stuff on his bees and he died in 1964.
    A golden age of treatment free that never actually existed.

  18. #98
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    The high costs of such a program can be offset by keeping track of mite counts, and treating hives that exceed a certain standard while eliminating its queen and placing a daughter from a more performant hive. This way, you cut colony loss costs while still eliminating inadequate genetics.
    Yes, one of a number of strategies that lead in the same direction. But I don't understand 'high cost'.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  19. #99
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    yep. My grandfather used oil of wintergreen and other stuff on his bees and he died in 1964.
    A golden age of treatment free that never actually existed.
    a) if it had any effect at all; b) one swallow does not a summer make... try reading Manley or Ruttner - there are probably others. Any book of husbandry that has a section on propagation. Its the basics that matter.

    One revealing rule: if it needs help it goes to market at the first opportunity.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    just starting my fifth season here mike. what progress can you report for your twenty year investment into the problem of varroa?
    29 rudely healthy hives without any treatments or manipulations ever? A good understanding of how to husband a population? What else do you want?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

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