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  1. #21
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    at one time i questioned the usefulness of the 'unique forum rules' and was made of aware of the forum history to which i was not privy.

    mike, as relative newcomers you and may fail to appreciate the purpose and necessity of having these rules in place. the problem with them is the same problem as defining 'treatment free' in the first place. i tried to point out to you in an earlier thread that these considerations are arbitrary and with so much overlap in management philosophies among beekeepers it's a fool's quest to arrive at a set of guidelines that will be acceptable.

    as an aside, here is an interesting post by randy oliver on another forum that describes how it is possible to use selection along with 'soft' treatments and make progress toward breeding mite resistance and less dependence on treatments:

    "We are in the middle of selecting breeders this spring (selected about 10
    yesterday). Every year for the past 5 years, the percentage of our
    breeders that score zero mites in a wash of ~300 bees from a brood frame
    has increased. We perform this test after almonds. All colonies were
    treated with an oxalic dribble in November, and all went into the winter
    with mites (I don't use any high-efficacy synthetic miticides). By
    selection time in March, all have gone through 3-5 varroa reproductive
    cycles, at least one with abundant drone brood (the colonies are full of
    emerged drones).

    Of the strong, productive colonies selected as potential breeders, most
    score in the range of 0-6 mites, with a few having much more (this season
    one had 15, and one nearly 30). We generally only breed from those scoring
    zero or 1 mite (I selected one with 2 mites yesterday, since it was the
    best honey producer we have found this spring).

    That said, for reality check, none of last year's breeders would have
    survived 'til winter without treatment of some sort. I will run the same
    test again this season. I am not out to make extravagant claims or to
    pitch anything--I simply tell it like it is. We are happy with the
    progress of this program, as we can see progress on the mite front each
    year. We're not treatment free yet, but we run a profitable operation
    using only low-efficacy "natural" treatments."
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    squarepeg:

    As made evident by Randy's comments, there are many ways of selecting for resistant stock and TF is but one of them.

    However, as you are aware, the rules of the game have changed as have the consequences.

    DWV has apparently jumped species from Honeybees to native bumble bees.

    Mike should be aware of the recent Furst paper showing that DWV was impacting native bumble bees in the U.K. .

    I made people aware that DWV has been found to be hosted by both the common eastern and Hunt's bumble bee.

    So, it's no longer about not treating. They have to be resistant Honeybees.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,656

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    To answer Mike's question:

    No. It's not adequate because the actual objective is beekeeping with resistant stocks of Honeybees.

    Once you have resistant Honeybees, the rest becomes moot.
    I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks.

    Mike
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  4. #24
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,656

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    ...you and may fail to appreciate the purpose and necessity of having these rules in place. the problem with them is the same problem as defining 'treatment free' in the first place.
    The point is to refine the conceptual apparatus as understanding develops. Without doing that progress is hobbled - in any field.


    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    as an aside, here is an interesting post by randy oliver on another forum that describes how it is possible to use selection along with 'soft' treatments and make progress toward breeding mite resistance and less dependence on treatments:
    You can raise resistance while using 'hard' treatments for I care. It doesn't make any difference at all. As long as you can find reliable ways to assay for resistance, and you take care to use the best only as parents. (This is easier without any treatments or manipulations of course...)

    'Hard Bond', 'Soft Bond' whatever. As long as raising resistance is going on, you'll get to proper, sustainable 'treatment free' after a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    "We are in the middle of selecting breeders this spring (selected about 10
    yesterday). ...
    I tried to find the date on this, and failed. Can you? Not much use without that.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  5. #25
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    May 2009
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    However, as you are aware, the rules of the game have changed as have the consequences.

    DWV has apparently jumped species from Honeybees to native bumble bees.

    Mike should be aware of the recent Furst paper showing that DWV was impacting native bumble bees in the U.K.
    Doesn't change a thing. The same rules apply.

    Viruses mutate and skip species all the time. Natural Selection sorts it out all the time.

    Let's try to stick to the topic eh?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  6. #26
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Doesn't change a thing. The same rules apply.

    Viruses mutate and skip species all the time. Natural Selection sorts it out all the time.

    Let's try to stick to the topic eh?

    Mike (UK)
    It's relevant because now you have to keep mite levels, and therefore DWV, low in a treatment free setting as well.

    There is a difference between 'manmade' pathogen spillover and natural events.

  7. #27
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    May 2009
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It's relevant because now you have to keep mite levels, and therefore DWV, low in a treatment free setting as well.

    There is a difference between 'manmade' pathogen spillover and natural events.
    Only in our guilt levels. Nature doesn't care. If the virus is in bumblebees then its there, and bumblebees will sort it out.

    (reading in support of WLC's account of the situation):
    "... the need for increased pathogen control in managed bee species to maintain wild pollinators, as declines in native pollinators may be caused by interspecies pathogen transmission originating from managed pollinators." [1]

    The best possible method of control is of course innate resistance - primarily to the vector, varroa (also of course to the virus/s itself.

    Without that we'll always have a doughnut of mite infested collapsing feral colonies around every apiary. "increased pathogen control" of the orthodox kind simply perpetuates this problem.

    Which another good reason to work at getting the tools in place to talk clearly about raising resistance - not muddling it with 'treatment free'.

    Mike (UK)

    [1] Disease associations between honeybees and bumblebees as a threat to wild pollinators
    M. A. Fürst, D. P. McMahon, J. L. Osborne, R. J. Paxton & M. J. F. Brown
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture12977.html
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-12-2014 at 03:04 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Thank you Mike.

    Things do get muddled unless you can cut through to the central issue.

    Just a note, both Furst in the UK and others here in the US have found evidence for DWV going from managed pollinators to native ones. That's a point I was trying to make as well.

    I think that there are so many important approaches and caveats to reaching 'resistance' that the TF narrative itself has become a barrier to that goal.

  9. #29
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,991

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    If the virus is in bumblebees then its there, and bumblebees will sort it out.
    Don't bet on it Mike, how do you know they will sort it out? Are you aware several species have gone extinct in your country?

    In fact we have sent bumblebees from my country, to your country, in an attempt to re stock, although personally I fail to see the point when the environmental issues that lead to the original extinctions, have not been resolved.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #30
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    OT:

    The issues have gone past becoming the local nuisance beekeeper.

    My own view is that we need effective, 'safe', and validated methods of getting to resistance.

    I found the statement, 'I don't breed from the dead colonies.' to be unacceptable.

    Collectively, we're better than that.

  11. #31
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    My own view is that we need effective, 'safe', and validated methods of getting to resistance.
    Don't we all. Nothing new, no reason to have a separate treatment free sub forum this one allows full discussion of Mikes theories, for whatever practicle value that is.

    Any case Barry said no so why still going on?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by brettj777 View Post
    Without rules we are all just monkeys flinging poo at each other...
    Without rules? Clearly you haven't been here long.


    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Collectively, we're better than that.
    Yes, we know who's better than whom.


    Mike, it appears this is a futile proposition. You just don't have the populace here with the will to solve anything. If you did, it wouldn't continually be the bickering match that it is. I suggest searching for a treatment-free beekeeping Facebook group. You're far more likely to find a well behaved group of people serious about what they're doing and not interested in bickering.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #33
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,656

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    In fact we have sent bumblebees from my country, to your country, in an attempt to re stock, although personally I fail to see the point when the environmental issues that lead to the original extinctions, have not been resolved.
    You said it. Its the destruction of the floral diversity by greedy landowners, aided by grants handed out by public servants entirely captured by the farming lobby that is the problem.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Edgefield, SC
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    32

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Wow!

    I never knew there was this much animosity on beekeeper forums!

    Interesting......

  15. #35
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    OT:

    I wasn't referring to a sub forum. I was talking about a renovation. Gut it, build it better.

  16. #36
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    WLC gutting & rebuilding it as per what Mike suggests is not an option because if you read what people are saying, probably a majority of them are treatment free but will perform certain manipulations etc and the TF section in it's current form allows them to discuss that.

    There would have to be a separate sub forum a "no manipulation either" forum. But a separate forum for that is not needed the TF section in it's current form allows full discussion of those ideas, just, nobody can get banged on the head for mentioning manipulations but Mike may have to live with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    You said it.
    Mike (UK)
    Well, found one thing we agree on Mike maybe there's hope , glad you actually read my posts.

    There is quite a bit of interest here in some quarters in the history of English bumblebees although it makes depressing reading. Here, bumblebees have made something of a resurgence since varroa reduced the competition for them. They are also raised here commercially, and my niece is at Uni studying around Bumblebees she is about to fly out to Europe for (I think) 12 months to work with them.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 03-12-2014 at 03:33 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Stillwell, KS
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    There would have to be a separate sub forum a "no manipulation either" forum. But a separate forum for that is not needed the TF section in it's current form allows full discussion of those ideas, just, nobody can get banged on the head for mentioning manipulations but Mike may have to live with that.
    Then there would have to be long winded arguments on what actually is a manipulation.

    I don't think Mike has enough years to realize that we can't do anything to a hive that we don't change it's chance of survival.

    Whether it's feeding, supplementing, opening the brood nest, adding supers, splitting, moving, Harvesting, wrapping, insulation, providing a wind break, etc., etc., any one of them can and does change the survivors. Where are you going to draw the line?

    Don

    Bumbles are alive and well here, sorry to here there are place where they are suffering.

  18. #38
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post

    Well, found one thing we agree on Mike maybe there's hope , glad you actually read my posts.
    I don't know what makes you think I was referring to your post OT. You plainly can't see the point of the whole exercise - or maybe can but want to disrupt its chances. I have you down as agri-chem agent. You just want to stop people working at resistance. You systematically muddle every discission and pour cold water on every attempt at clarification; and that's just for starters.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    But a separate forum for that is not needed the TF section in it's current form allows full discussion of those ideas
    No it doesn't. Time and again we meet 'treatment free' beekeepers who, it turns out, have been manipulating all along. When we try to talk about the difference we get clobbered and told its against the rules. We get told 'everything you do is a manipulation' - (see D Semple above). We get told it doesn't work, can't work, that all properly experienced beekeepers know this.

    Its exactly like the bad old days when any mention that 'treatment free' was an option was systematically stamped on - as it still is in some places. Its just that now its raising resistance that's the clear target.

    People who don't do resistance raising seem offended by people who advocate it. And that offence gets translated into disruption of any discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    just, nobody can get banged on the head for mentioning manipulations but Mike may have to live with that.
    And that is used (as one of several strategies) to systematically prevent discussion of the one thing that would permanantly and comprehensively remove the profit-opportunity that flows from bees addicted to treatments.

    (Of course I could be imagining that motivation... but the effect is exactly the same. If it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck.... you may as well operate on the basis that it probably is a duck.)

    If I get my way I'll not only get a separate section, I'll be a moderater. I'll operate 3 month bans for people who irritate me.

    Now watch how much that notion scares the pants off them.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-13-2014 at 04:57 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  20. #40
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    Apr 2008
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    Leominster, MA USA
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    169

    Default Re: Is the division 'Treatment Free' adequate to the task?

    Whew. Taking a deep breath and practicing my own resistance

    Can't wait until the northern hemisphere bees are all back out!

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