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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    longton, kansas USA
    Posts
    606

    Default was offered free bee equipment....

    ....soo yeah....i went out and picked it up hahaha. cost me about $15 in gas because im in a rental/loaner until insurance is done getting my truck handled. or, i wouldnt have seen the reasoning to drive to pick it all up.

    they ended up giving me 2 deeps,2 supers,4 inners,4 outers,2 bottoms and 2 wood top feeders. all 10 frame equipment with most of the frames. im always down to pick up un wanted equipment. can never have enough right? time to start scrubbin and get these frames in the freezer.


    Hope everyone is having a good day.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Paulding County, GA
    Posts
    141

    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    Congrats on your free equipment!!
    Donny

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KC, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,238

    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    I would scrape clean and scorch boxes, covers, bottoms. Remove any wax from frames and bleach everything.
    A little time and effort can't hurt. A case of AFB is the last thing you want.

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...w-about-bleach

    >time to start scrubbin and get these frames in the freezer.
    How long have they been stored and where? Outside?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Utah, USA
    Posts
    170

    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    I tried something different with some old acquired equipment, and so far so good.

    I put some 4x4 boards on the ground to form a raised platform, placed an electric frying pan down in it half full of water, then stacked the new boxes with frames above it with the inner and lid on, and steamed the lot. Was able to get temps around 130 to 140 all the way through. Left it for about and hour. For the last 15 minutes, I dumped a half bottle of rubbing alcohol in the fry pan and let it alcohol vapor the bunch to further sterilize. Have not seen any problems from using this old equipment. I figured steam and alcohol vapor were quick and temporary and would not leave any toxic residues....
    Beekeeping 12 yrs, 2 recent - 10 Hives - 6a - Engineering Solutions against Winter Losses! - WARMBEES.COM

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    longton, kansas USA
    Posts
    606

    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    I tried something different with some old acquired equipment, and so far so good.

    I put some 4x4 boards on the ground to form a raised platform, placed an electric frying pan down in it half full of water, then stacked the new boxes with frames above it with the inner and lid on, and steamed the lot. Was able to get temps around 130 to 140 all the way through. Left it for about and hour. For the last 15 minutes, I dumped a half bottle of rubbing alcohol in the fry pan and let it alcohol vapor the bunch to further sterilize. Have not seen any problems from using this old equipment. I figured steam and alcohol vapor were quick and temporary and would not leave any toxic residues....

    great idea !!!!!!

    that will be done this week or next as i dont need to use them yet soo no hurry. but ill definitely be doing that

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Utah, USA
    Posts
    170

    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    I placed the short 4x4's in a square configuration to be similar to a bottom board so that I had a basic sealed chamber for the frying pan. I then stacked the deeps 4 high above it like a normal hive with a top vent. It was obviously a little hotter down lower than high, so after about a half hour I swapped the high boxes for the low ones to get the higher temps on all boxes and frames. I also placed the bottom board on top in place of the lid, after a bit, so that I could steam it also. I don't know how hot it needs to get to kill some of the diseases out there, but 15 minutes in 120-140 deg alcohol vapor seemed like a little kick in the pants to make up for not getting hotter than 120-140.
    Beekeeping 12 yrs, 2 recent - 10 Hives - 6a - Engineering Solutions against Winter Losses! - WARMBEES.COM

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    I don't want to hurt your feeling but those temperatures are useless for killing bacteria. Plain only bleach would be more effective.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Utah, USA
    Posts
    170

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Feelings not hurt, in fact I agree. Autoclaves use 300 deg temps which require pressure to achieve. That is why I used alcohol as a vapor also. My entire thought process was moving in the direction of an autoclave or at least a steam environment, because it seems such a waste to have to destroy hives after some of these diseases. So I was experimenting to see what else might could be done.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Homerville, Ohio
    Posts
    62

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Get the pieces wax dipped.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    Autoclaves use 300 deg temps which require pressure to achieve.
    It is also a closed chamber so the parts being sterilized hit 300 degrees.
    Last edited by Acebird; 03-10-2014 at 07:51 PM.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    AFB is a Spore forming bacteria... The Spore is pretty indestructible which is why it is generally recommended that used equipment not get used and known infected hives are burned... There are ways to destroy it, but nothing that is easily available to the common consumer. Steam treating under pressure at 250 f for 30 minutes will destroy it, but you will need a pretty big pressure cooker... The alcohol vapor I don't know about as far as effectiveness goes. I cannot think of any application where alcohol vapor is used to sanitize.

    As mentioned above hot wax dipping with a bleach solution is effective against it... The wax keeps the bleach in contact with it long enough to destroy it.

    If it was me I would use the equipment and not worry about it.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Utah, USA
    Posts
    170

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    My thought process was that anything short of a spore based disease, might be taken care of by alcohol. I did not know that AFB was spore based, but I figure that killing all non spore based with alcohol vapor was better than nothing. I chose vapor since it would penetrate porous wood as well as cracks and holes where bubbles could prevent other liquid applications from penetrating. Again, also to prevent potential residues that might be harmful long term.

    I had not heard of using bleach or wax, so that's something I learned. But hey if being inventive, you gotta start somewhere. I just didn't feel quite right about placing used equipment into service without at least something done. Especially since the equipment had a colony that died without an official investigative resolution, in my case. I've not been a member of this forum long, so had not heard other methods before I tried the vapor method. I was hoping for higher temps than I achieved in the attempt, and so used the alcohol. In my case, the equipment in question has been in place for over a year with, as yet, no sign of anything exotic. Not conclusive, but not a failure either.

    Any biology professionals out there that can answer as to the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of alcohol vapor or even bleach with regard to spores? In the case of bleach, my question would be any residue that we should be concerned with? I believe it is understood that conventional methods of heat sterilization with temps around 300 F are effective. The challenge would be delivery on wooden bee equipment.

    Another thought I had, is regarding possible radiation methods... While I'm not thinking about a backyard method of irradiating old equipment, it would not be that implausible to construct a microwave chamber with a retrofit from an old microwave oven, that could possibly do the job...?

    Now mind you, I don't have any known infected equipment, but with a hopelessly wandering/inquiring mind... Not necessarily challenging conventional wisdom, as Bluegrass would say, but in the spirit of invention and creative thinking, perhaps seeking to add-to or further the possibilities. I could see something like a microwave chamber existing in regional clubs and associations, to be made available to beeks as needed, which might help with disease control and eradication. Beekeepers can't always afford to burn and replace equipment, and may be reluctant to do so, but if an alternate method were available and affordable, more beeks might take advantage and stay in the game responsibly. But I'm also a consumate idealist. Further thoughts?
    Beekeeping 12 yrs, 2 recent - 10 Hives - 6a - Engineering Solutions against Winter Losses! - WARMBEES.COM

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    A microwave used on equipment with wax and propolise could end up a bomb. Personally, quarantine is the best practice for the average beekeeper. Use the equipment in a remote area and check for disease. If none is found then assume it is good. If you buy brand new equipment and use it you are not guaranteed that the colony won't develop a disease.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    I have seen the inside of many microwave ovens and I am not convinced that if we did a swab of the inside of one, that I could not grow something.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Utah, USA
    Posts
    170

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    That's the question. The wavelength of the microwaves used in ovens, is specifically set to resonate with the water molecule. Since I believe water molecules exist within bacteria, it stands to reason that it might be sterilized. The spores on the other hand probably do not have water molecules inside and therefore may not take on the energy from microwaves. Hence the question. Of course once sterile, a food medium would be immediately vulnerable to re introduction etc. So your point is valid. Just wondered if anyone had any experience with biologic elements and microwaves other than cooking. Its just a thought experiment until it becomes an idea...

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    Just wondered if anyone had any experience with biologic elements and microwaves other than cooking.
    That is how the microwave would sterilize. It cooks. The water, wax and propolise would get very hot. controlling that temperature so as not to explode would be the secrete.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,710

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    If your intent is to actually sterilize, it seem unlikely that a microwave oven would work to sterilize. Since microwave action heats the water in the object, that water will boil off at around 212 degrees F.

    Steam sterilization requires holding at higher temperatures than can be achieved without pressurizing steam. More here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterili...(microbiology)
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    We are fantasizing about something specific for bee equipment. Autoclave is under pressure so water would boil at a much higher temperature. I am not saying microwave is the answer but it is a quick energy source to get things up to temp. Microwave on its own would not kill spores. Any sterilization method would cost a large percentage of what the equipment is worth. This fact is one of the reasons the medical industry has gone to products that you use once and throw away.

    I have already said that the best practice that I can think of for the OP is to quarantine the equipment, use it and verify that the bees are healthy before combining it with his apiary.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Brandenburg, KY
    Posts
    332

    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Radiation. Several companies offer that service or used to at $5 a box with frames.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,277

    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    I tried something different with some old acquired equipment, and so far so good.

    I put some 4x4 boards on the ground to form a raised platform, placed an electric frying pan down in it half full of water, then stacked the new boxes with frames above it with the inner and lid on, and steamed the lot. Was able to get temps around 130 to 140 all the way through. Left it for about and hour. For the last 15 minutes, I dumped a half bottle of rubbing alcohol in the fry pan and let it alcohol vapor the bunch to further sterilize. Have not seen any problems from using this old equipment. I figured steam and alcohol vapor were quick and temporary and would not leave any toxic residues....
    If you had done this w/ half of the equipment and not w/ the other half chances are you would have the same results. I doubt that you actually did anything effective to destroy any AFB, which is all one really needs to be concerned w/ in this case.

    If you had done this experiment w/ equipment which actually had AFB spores/scale present and you had the results you have, that would be something. Otherwise, sorry to say, you are concluding something not necessarily evident.

    And now you have inspired someone else to do what you did. Though doing so shouldn't be dangerous, just possibly misleading and unnecessary.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



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