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  1. #21
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    Mar 2014
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    Gore, VA, USA
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    10

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchgobears View Post
    As a new-bee in this arena, I have taken the time to peruse many threads on this forum. There appear to be many times when there have been passionate statements made by "treatment-free" and "treatment" individuals that have been inflammatory. Rather than try to decide which side wins and how to define terms, we should all learn from each other's success and failure and decide which options are best for us individually and our bees. I would be happy to debate anyone, if they wish, that providing an artificial home is a treatment. While practicing medicine, there are many patients who choose treatments I do not recommend. They are still my patients. Hopefully, through this process, we all learn what works, and what is best for the bees.

    “As a general rule...people ask for advice only in order not to follow it; or if they do follow it, in order to have someone to blame for giving it.”
    ― Alexandre Dumas
    The point is this is the "treatment-free" forum. The term has been defined for use in *this* forum. The rules have been laid out. If a person doesn't want to follow them, this isn't the place for him or her. No biggie. But it's not a place to debate what treatment free is or isn't of why it's good or stupid or whatever. I only know this because I read the post stickied at the top of the forum. Because I'm a good girl and follow rules.

  2. #22
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    Mar 2014
    Location
    Jackson, Mississippi, USA
    Posts
    56

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    If it was called minimalist treatment, would it make people happier? I think they understand that they aren't completely chem free. Heck, there's chemicals in the air giving people lung all the time, and the bees spend their time flying through it. They just don't want to keep putting chemicals/whatever in over and over. Everyone would benefit from them breeding for resistant bees, everyone benefits from them killing more of their hives than the average person, if that is true.

    I just now a second year keeper, and I'm more of a moderate person. Do as little as possible to accomplish what you want to accomplish. Everyone's got different goals. Technically I was treatment free just because I was too busy to do the normal stuff with them, much less treat them. And they both made it through without much of my help. But I wouldn't be afraid to try some stuff if I felt it was needed. Of course, the thought of putting chemicals directly into something I'm eating kind of worries me, but I'm also the one that tries to not take too too many medications for silly stuff either.

    As far as I know, there are no rules against posting an anti-treatment free thread every day on the main forums. (I skimmed the rules there, I just happened to read these really well because it was a unique situation.) They just wanted somewhere to talk about treatment free without having to argue with folks all the time, and I'm starting to feel kind of bad for them. Makes me want to go sugar dust my bees, just to see what happens. Maybe I'll go treatment free (minimal treatment) on half of the hives and not on the other half?

  3. #23
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    Feb 2010
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    4,317

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    If snl were to ask, "Where is the 'front' in treatment free beekeeping?", I would say that it's most likely in the deep South.

    That's where I'm picking up on a lot of new/useful information, some of it backed up in the scientific literature.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    5,113

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Of course, that never made it into the 'special' forum rules.
    Yeah, that was awesome. I'd like to think I had a hand in keeping that particular bit of ignorance out of any official document.


    This has been done to death, and the very fact that the forum rules have been up for years proves that this thread is trolling.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  5. #25
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,679

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    I'm guessing to call yourself treatment free, you must have a definition in mind as to what that is. It seems that TF folks cannot among themselves agree what it is. If you sugar dust, are you still TF? If you use FGMO, are you still TF?

    What is treatment free?
    For me 'treatment free' is giving no treatments (substances) and making no manipulations (like 'artificial swarming' or (beekeeper-made brood breaks) to help your bees survive/thrive.

    They survive/thrive because they have what it takes to successfully manage varroa - as well as any other predator/micropredator/pathogen.

    This is for me the very definition of health.

    In my view a creature that has to be helped to be 'healthy' isn't truly healthy at all. (Randy Oliver defines such bees as 'domesticated')

    The only way to keep bees like this without suffering extensive sickness/large losses is by learning from Nature and practicing (unnatural) propagative selection - unless you are lucky enough to have a thriving local resistant feral population.

    From this perspective, any act that tends to undermine a bee population's ability to thrive unaided comes under the heading 'treatment'.

    It is undesirable precisely because it leads toward greater human dependency ('domestication') and away from independent, self sufficient health.

    There are good arguments to support the further contention that methods that lead toward human dependency are, in an open mating setting, only little short of suicidal. Certainly they are absolutely 'addictive' - the more you treat, the more you need to treat. Certainly they dramatically inhibit the co-evoltion of bee and mite (adaptation) that would supply the ideal solution. Certainly they 'poison' (in a genetic sense) any nearby ferals.

    That supplies my account of not just what t/f is (for me) by why the t/f stance is a great improvement on the veterinary approach.

    Mike (UK)

    4 years non-treatment/no manipulations: 29 out of 33 hives overwintered and building well.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  6. #26
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    If you bought your bees from a longtime TF source like BeeWeaver, you're TF.
    There's no reason to treat.

  7. #27
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,679

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    If you bought your bees from a longtime TF source like BeeWeaver, you're TF.
    There's no reason to treat.
    You're only t/f under that scenario if you don't treat (or manipulate) them.. Otherwise you'll be losing the ability to keep them without treatments. You're only t/f under that scenario if you don't treat (or manipulate) them... otherwise you'll be losing the ability to keep them without treatments. 'Treatment free' must surely entail a committment to maintaining the ability to remain t/f?

    If you're planning to buy in new queens regularly I suppose you can do what you like.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-10-2014 at 06:41 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
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    2,887

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    They survive/thrive because they have what it takes to successfully manage varroa - as well as any other predator/micropredator/pathogen.

    This is for me the very definition of health.
    The mites are not as big of a problem as the viruses they carry are. Viruses have a nasty habit of changing once their host develops a resistance to them. So you can have the best bees in the world, but once one of the mite born viruses mutates they will die. This is why the Flu vaccine gets changed every year and is sometimes not effective, because Influenza changes every year and we are not always good a predicting the changes.

    In my view a creature that has to be helped to be 'healthy' isn't truly healthy at all. (Randy Oliver defines.......
    Randy Oliver doesn't get to make up definitions willy nilly. Domesticated refers to any population that has been selectively bred by humans to accentuate certain traits. That is the official definition and the European Honey bee has met that criterion for 5000 years or so.

    The only way to keep bees like this without suffering extensive sickness/large losses is by learning from Nature and practicing (unnatural) propagative selection - unless you are lucky enough to have a thriving local resistant feral population.
    see definition of domesticated again.

    From this perspective, any act that tends to undermine a bee population's ability to thrive unaided comes under the heading 'treatment'.

    It is undesirable precisely because it leads toward greater human dependency ('domestication') and away from independent, self sufficient health.

    There are good arguments to support the further contention that methods that lead toward human dependency are, in an open mating setting, only little short of suicidal. Certainly they are absolutely 'addictive' - the more you treat, the more you need to treat. Certainly they dramatically inhibit the co-evoltion of bee and mite (adaptation) that would supply the ideal solution. Certainly they 'poison' (in a genetic sense) any nearby ferals.

    That supplies my account of not just what t/f is (for me) by why the t/f stance is a great improvement on the veterinary approach.

    Mike (UK)

    4 years non-treatment/no manipulations: 29 out of 33 hives overwintered and building well.
    You have a lot to learn Grasshopper.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  9. #29
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    If you're planning to buy in new queens regularly I suppose you can do what you like. Mike (UK)
    That's the idea of relying on a breeder like BeeWeaver. All I have to do is order new queens without having to break a sweat.

  10. #30
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    Aug 2006
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    Danbury, CT
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    2,887

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    That's the idea of relying on a breeder like BeeWeaver. All I have to do is order new queens without having to break a sweat.
    What if that plan fails? Just because they come out of a "Treatment Free" operation doesn't mean you will have success with them treatment free.

    I don't think treatment free can be bought, I think more of it has to do with beekeeper then it does the bees.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  11. #31
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Can TF bees be purchased? Meaning that you can buy them and use them in a TF operation?

    I think so.

    I understand the kind of 'blending' Daniel Weaver is doing by open mating his queen stock.

    I also understand what I've seen so far with these bees.

    Bluegrass, there's an 'Ah, Hah!' moment in TF beekeeping.

    Looking at a video of Tim Ives working his bees gave me the first one. Looking at Dean's video of Dee Lusby's bees was the confirmation.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,212

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Yes, you can purchase treatment free bees. This does not mean they will be the best bees for your particular climate or circumstances. There is also an argument to make about which set of traits give the best treatment free bees.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  13. #33
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    Apr 2012
    Location
    Baytown, TX., USA.
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    651

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    "proves that this thread is trolling." Sol Parker

    Agree.
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  14. #34
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    FP:

    I think that the Texas bees solved a high heat problem I had. They're also resistant stock. So, they fit the bill. Throw in good service and 'YEEE HA!'. (I hope that was from Texas).

  15. #35
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    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    I also understand what I've seen so far with these bees.
    What is your experience with them so far?
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  16. #36
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Good build up and productivity. Queen issues (easy to fix, but I had some). Clearly different behaviors than previous domestic stocks I've had.

    I'll take a peek tomorrow to see if they fly in 55 degree F temperatures. It's still winter though.

  17. #37
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    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bristol,RI
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    412

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Looking at Dean's video of Dee Lusby's bees was the confirmation.
    Had not seen these before so something productive came out of this thread i didn't know about the cell orientation towards the middle. housel positioning i think he says.
    Last edited by JakeDatc; 03-10-2014 at 07:50 PM.

  18. #38
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    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,349

    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Probably 'Housel' positioning. Those threads often turn out to be quite amusing ....
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  19. #39
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    Apr 2010
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    Bristol,RI
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    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    i see that now *HIDE*

  20. #40
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: For Treatment Free Beeks only

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    The mites are not as big of a problem as the viruses they carry are. Viruses have a nasty habit of changing once their host develops a resistance to them. So you can have the best bees in the world, but once one of the mite born viruses mutates they will die.
    As and where there is no vector, there is no virus problem. To think of bees present difficulties in terms of virusus rather than mites is wildly misplaced.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    Randy Oliver doesn't get to make up definitions willy nilly. Domesticated refers to any population that has been selectively bred by humans to accentuate certain traits.
    Lets be honest: 'domesticated' is a little vague. And anyone can offer to apply terms, anytime. I think Randy's take offers a very useful perspective. (To characterise it 'willy nilly' is well wide of the mark: Randy is a serious bee person who has clearly given this plenty of thought). And his point - that there are bee stocks and then there are bee stocks, and only some can be kept t/f is spot on. How would you characterise the difference between treatment-dependent and health self-sufficient stocks?)

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    That is the official definition and the European Honey bee has met that criterion for 5000 years or so.
    Not so much. The honeybee has been bred for a long time, sure, but has also remained wild, and the populations have co-existed and interbred all that time. That fact, and the lack of full control over mating that has resulted, has until recently meant the bee has defied 'domestication' in the normal sense.

    That situation has changed to a significant degree with systematic application of the veterinary model to beekeeping, industrial queen raising, and the abandonment of any attempt to breed in innate resistance to the new predator.

    Unlike wild bees these stocks need human help to survive. Randy is right: that has to be viewed as a significant step toward domestication - for those stocks.

    If you want to see his argument its here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...01#post1068801

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    You have a lot to learn Grasshopper.
    Don't we all.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 03-11-2014 at 02:42 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

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