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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    OK thanks. Always interested in freebies LOL.

    Vinegar in the feed, doubt that would affect mites at all, it's really just making the PH more tolerable for the bees plus helping with inversion. Creosote bush, don't think we have here, juniper we do but to be honest doubt it would be much benefit.

    Spearmint is debatable but in any case it has to be paid for so if paying I'd rather pay for something reputed to be more effective.

    Anyhow thanks for the full reply, just I'm always on the lookout for new ideas especially free ones LOL.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,388

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Yeah, the vinegar is for PH. I try to make it like honey - mostly just a guess. You can buy spearmint or distill it yourself if your are really serious. Same with vinegar. The spearmint mostly just floats on the syrup, so again, is debateble. The creosote bush is an old Mexican folk remedy, and said to kill parasites and mites. I probably don't do it enough to really be able to tell. You are supposed to smoke the heck out of them over the course of a few weeks, but all I do is mix it with my smoker fuel and not worry about it. Not sure why mine live and other beek's die? Have no answer other than their 1/2 wild genetics for the most part. I should know soon enough, my bees are part of a study being conducted in my region. On one hand I want to know, and on the other I don't really want to know. I have lost colonies of purely domestic bees to mites where my others cannot be killed it would seem. Side by side you can't tell much difference in the two.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  3. #63

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McCarty View Post
    I should know soon enough, my bees are part of a study being conducted in my region.
    What are they studying...or would they rather you not say? How long before results?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,388

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Not sure really, but has to do with feral survivors, mites, etc. Do not know many specifics, just providing samples to them.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  5. #65

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    I know that there is considerable interest in the possibility of less virulent mites following Tom Seeley's observations.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Bayfield, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    139

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Thank you for sharing your success. It is very encouraging to know that it happens, especially when there are so many people who are loosing hives.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." year 3, 14 langs and 2 top bars
    www.4cornersbeekeepers.com

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Dover, NH
    Posts
    66

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Quote Originally Posted by scorpionmain View Post
    Hey Stan,
    Not trying to be a Debbie-downer but I started out as Treatment-Free as well and my experience was that they tend do well for 2 years but crash the 3rd.
    I've seen others on here report the same; good for two, crash the third due to mites.
    Sorry for digging up an older thread. As a new beekeeper that is wrapping up year number 2, and going to be entering year 3 in the spring... What is different from year number 2 and year number 3? I am not completely treatment free, but I would still like to know what to look out for.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,388

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    2 years eh? I am at year 5 and no issues so far.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  9. #69

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonERD View Post
    Sorry for digging up an older thread. As a new beekeeper that is wrapping up year number 2, and going to be entering year 3 in the spring... What is different from year number 2 and year number 3? I am not completely treatment free, but I would still like to know what to look out for.
    If you have just ordinary bees, no VSH, BeeWeaver or ?, you are likely to witness crash. It is just the way mites multiply, in 3 years they have become so numerous, and you wonīt see them if you are not familiar with them, that the bees die.
    Make a sugar roll test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAQShZk1cic

    If you have resistant bees and you are prepared to have losses, no worries.

    People in this forum have strange ideas about how things like environment, sugar feeding and cell size has major influence in varroa resistance. I donīt believe in that at all. It is mostly about genetics suited to your area.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,388

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    In total agreement about local genetics. I think the importation of strange bees into areas they are not from is a prime part of the problem - possibly because the bees can never adapt due to constant importation of new stock.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,841

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    I'd like to hear how the OP's hives are doing now with fall coming.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    People in this forum have strange ideas about how things like environment, sugar feeding and cell size has major influence in varroa resistance. I donīt believe in that at all. It is mostly about genetics suited to your area.
    if it is about bees suited to your area, that means bees suited to the local environment. So it is about environment.

    Sugar feeding? When I had treatment free hives I fed some sugar to the first one to get them started when the bees where dumped on comb foundation & needed feeding. Once that was done, for the next 2 years no hives were fed sugar they only ate honey still eventually lost them all.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,036

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    if it is about bees suited to your area, that means bees suited to the local environment. So it is about environment.
    Interestingly this very topic is being discussed on bee-L.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Don't read beeline & don't know what conclusion their "experts" will come to, I was just pointing out from Juhani's post that one cannot say the environment does not matter, but the location does. Because the environment is determined by the location.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    collbran, co
    Posts
    528

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    so do you use the black walnut in your smoker when you do your normal hive inspections?

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Bell County, KY, USA
    Posts
    383

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonERD View Post
    Sorry for digging up an older thread. As a new beekeeper that is wrapping up year number 2, and going to be entering year 3 in the spring... What is different from year number 2 and year number 3? I am not completely treatment free, but I would still like to know what to look out for.
    That's okay.
    I noticed some K-wing bees in some hives (a virus transmitted by mites) and a general decline in population.
    Had a couple hive abscond, I guess trying to escape the mites.
    Also saw an increase of trouble with hive beetles, wax moths, and ants as the populations fell and were not able defend themselves against common pests.
    I had some hives freeze during the polar vortex. I attributed this to mites dwindling the numbers down so that they didn't have enough bees to keep warm. Lots of dead mites found littered on the bottom board in my post-mortem inspections.
    My 3rd year treatment-free just lead to failure.
    Now since I treat, I have strong healthier hives that are populous and actually were able to make a surplus of honey unlike before.
    This was my experience, not trying to discourage anyone.
    Maybe you will have better luck than I. I hope you do.
    Just try it & report back; just don't let any loses discourage you.
    Learn what works for you.
    I'd like to be treatment-free one day but I am just not able to yet.
    Last edited by scorpionmain; 08-31-2014 at 06:05 PM.

  17. #77

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Don't read beeline & don't know what conclusion their "experts" will come to, I was just pointing out from Juhani's post that one cannot say the environment does not matter, but the location does. Because the environment is determined by the location.
    What I meant was, that bees get suited into the environment, but they eventually change genetically, so they can be sent to an other environment and they will be varroa resistant there too.

    As I did 2009. Sent queens to Paul Jungels in Luxembourg, 2000 km from here, and he found some of them to be varroa resistant there. Not all of them because natural variation was huge (it still is a trouble but not so big). Nobody can breed 100% varroa resistant bees in 8 years (project start 2001)
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Romania, Sibiu
    Posts
    299

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    I don't like treating the bees as it's time consuming and I am in doubt if it's a good practice in the long run. People in my country are so "eager doctors" this time of the year using all kind of heavy chemicals - ridiculous.
    If a hive can withstand 2 years without treatment then it's definitely no fuss in applying one treatment/year using OA or any other effective treatment. I wonder why there is no "official schema" of this kind.
    I can see that this "varroa" has become the scapegoat of all problems .
    Dfa (Humid continental warm summer climate)

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,036

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    What I meant was, that bees get suited into the environment, but they eventually change genetically, so they can be sent to an other environment and they will be varroa resistant there too.
    How many generations does it take for this genetic change to occur?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  20. #80

    Default Re: 2 Year and treatment free

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    How many generations does it take for this genetic change to occur?
    I donīt know exactly, but I made it in 8 years (4-5 generations?), but controlled isolation matings were used and some counting mites too.

    Swedish professor Ingemar Fries was able to demonstrate in a study, that his bees in Gotland island had changed in just under 10 years. These bees were left alone in Gotland, some isolation too, and a lot of swarming. (My bees donīt swarm, some reason being their small brood areas.) These Gotland bees were studied together with bees from France, they had similar qualities in their ability to fight mites, but some differences too.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

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