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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by jhirsche View Post
    Tim, The new "empty" supers have frames with only undrawn wax and/or pierco foundation, right?
    Correct. 10 frames in the new boxes. 9 frames in drawn boxes. Boxes are also color coded.
    The bees will fill the drawn box first.

    Also note this is done on 3 deep brood box systems. 2 deep deep systems have dramatically less population.

  2. #42
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    Apr 2011
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Acebird, maybe Bluegrass is saying that the physical toll of working a tall hive is a negative in itself, and that was his answer? But tall hives actually affecting the colony or production? Someone had mentioned earlier that stacking tall depends a lot on where your bees are, and if the weather + environment make it a beneficial move. I've got some hives along coastal California, but it wouldn't behoove me to stack tall, because we just don't get the heat to help ripen all the honey.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    There are a few theories of why tall hives (triple deeps) might provide some advantages over standard single or double deep hive and super configurations.

    I think that the extra room at the bottom of a 3 deep configuration provides a lot of extra space for nectar storage, thereby freeing up the rest of the deeps for other productivity related bee activities.

    It's part of unlimited broodnest theory.

    The extra supers provide space for the hoarding instinct.

    That's some of what I understand about how it's supposed to work.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    There are a few theories of why tall hives (triple deeps) might provide some advantages over standard single or double deep hive and super configurations.

    I think that the extra room at the bottom of a 3 deep configuration provides a lot of extra space for nectar storage, thereby freeing up the rest of the deeps for other productivity related bee activities.

    It's part of unlimited broodnest theory.

    The extra supers provide space for the hoarding instinct.

    That's some of what I understand about how it's supposed to work.
    Pretty close WLC. The triples have the resources to allow the colony to brood up well before anything is coming into the hive. You'll end up with Atleast one brood cycle more vs a double. With the extra deep the Queen has more room to lay out. As the population increases, so must the space proportionally and without letting them to start backfilling. So initially the supers(space) is added for the growing population. The drawn supers entices the hoarding behavior and the checker boarded new supers. Keeps the wax builders depleted.

    Timing is everything.

  5. #45
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    Jan 2013
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    longton, kansas USA
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >If the boxes aren't on the hives bees won't put honey in them.

    Seems like someone, I think Michael Palmer, had a cute way of saying that... but it's true, bees never put honey in the supers that are still in the shed...


  6. #46
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It's part of unlimited broodnest theory.
    So are you saying you don't use a QE for tall stacked hives? It seams like no one wants to touch this question. Not what I expected.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  7. #47
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I think that the extra room at the bottom of a 3 deep configuration provides a lot of extra space for nectar storage, thereby freeing up the rest of the deeps for other productivity related bee activities.
    What?!! Think again WLC. How often have you seen a triple deep hive w/ honey stored in the bottom deep?

    Brian, I don't usually run anymore than two deeps and I don't usually use queen excluders w/ them unless there happens to be some brood in the honey supers, found when it's time to harvest.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    OK thanks Mark. How many supers do you put on and are they shallows or mediums? I also would like to know if you mix in foundation and do you do it by the box or checkerboard it with drawn comb?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Acebird: I have two queen excluders, but I don't use them with this configuration.

    sqkcrk: I said nectar. Unless you provide some extra space for it, they'll put it just anywhere.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    What does stored nectar become?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    Pretty close WLC. The triples have the resources to allow the colony to brood up well before anything is coming into the hive. You'll end up with Atleast one brood cycle more vs a double. With the extra deep the Queen has more room to lay out. As the population increases, so must the space proportionally and without letting them to start backfilling. So initially the supers(space) is added for the growing population. The drawn supers entices the hoarding behavior and the checker boarded new supers. Keeps the wax builders depleted. Timing is everything.
    I've got two BeeWeavers in triple deeps, with plenty of stores, ready for liftoff.

    I hope they don't go down though after this tough winter.

    I'm keeping an eye on a Growing Degree Days tracker (gddtracker.net) so I can at least judge what's coming in.

    Tim, you would be doing me a big favor if you start a thread in TF beekeeping to explain the steps you are taking as you prep your own hives.

    I'm concerned that these two hives could turn into boomers that might get out of my control. I'd hate for them to swarm.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    What does stored nectar become?
    The incoming nectar needs time to cure before it gets turned into honey.

    If the colony does become a boomer, they'll need plenty of space to store it first.

    I think that a key part of unlimited broodnest theory is that you want to avoid interfering with the natural structure of the broodnest and stores. If there's not enough space, they'll start working against each other.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I've got two BeeWeavers in triple deeps, with plenty of stores, ready for liftoff.

    I hope they don't go down though after this tough winter.

    I'm keeping an eye on a Growing Degree Days tracker (gddtracker.net) so I can at least judge what's coming in.

    Tim, you would be doing me a big favor if you start a thread in TF beekeeping to explain the steps you are taking as you prep your own hives.

    I'm concerned that these two hives could turn into boomers that might get out of my control. I'd hate for them to swarm.
    The first indicator is fresh pollen coming in. The colony doesn't start drone production till fresh pollen. Drones need to be 16 days old to be matured to mate. So..once drones start emerging the colony can start Qcells.
    My area March 11th on average is fresh pollen. April 27th average start on swarms, so Qcells was started April 11th. I super 2 weeks prior.

    Check brood frame quantities. They'll average 18 frames +/-3 frames. Every frame emerged equals 2 frames of bees. 18 frames equals another 36 frames (3.6 deeps) or 6 mediums. Which is why I use 7. Doing so doubles the space.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    The incoming nectar needs time to cure before it gets turned into honey.

    If the colony does become a boomer, they'll need plenty of space to store it first.

    I think that a key part of unlimited broodnest theory is that you want to avoid interfering with the natural structure of the broodnest and stores. If there's not enough space, they'll start working against each other.
    Space is the timing issue, getting the supers(space) on before that large population cycles out, becomes foragers ABD start backfilling in the bottom.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    So are you saying you don't use a QE for tall stacked hives? It seams like no one wants to touch this question. Not what I expected.
    No Q/E needed. A Queen can only lay so many eggs in a cycle. As long as the colony is giving enough room above the brood area. The brood area stays on the bottom 3 deeps. The New super creates the barrier. Foragers will fill the drawn super first. Need a good nectar flow for wax builders to ramp up. The second super is done filled already.

    Feeding to stimulate throws off the natural cycles. Since I don't feed, can't answer on the dynamics of doing so.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    What?!! Think again WLC. How often have you seen a triple deep hive w/ honey stored in the bottom deep?
    I see it all the time on hives not supered. Does it get capped? No.. They'll start backfilling wherever brood emerged out of. Wax builders use it to gorge to get primed.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    >So are you saying you don't use a QE for tall stacked hives? It seams like no one wants to touch this question. Not what I expected.

    I use QE's on my stacks. These are on top of ten frame Jumbo depth single brood chambers:


  18. #58
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    The New super creates the barrier.
    This new super, is it foundation, drawn comb or checkerboarded foundation/drawn comb?
    thanks.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    This new super, is it foundation, drawn comb or checkerboarded foundation/drawn comb?
    thanks.
    New foundation with 10 frame. Problem with checker boarding frames, they'll still go to the drawn frames first. Draw them out more and not draw the new correctly. If you CB using capped honey frames then they'll draw correctly. But that's to much work.
    I haven't had a Queen pass the New super to get into the drawn supers.

    In 2011 when using 10 supers. One out of 8 hives ended up with a second queen in top supers. On them hives you coulf of put another 8 supers on.

  20. #60
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    Town of West Monroe, Oswego County, New York, USA
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    Default Re: Too Tall? - Stacking Supers to Silly Heights

    Ace, If I may speak for Tim - the first super above the 3-deep brood chambers has 10 frames with new foundation (not yet drawn.) Above that, he places another super of drawn foundation, above that a super of new foundation, and on top, another super of drawn foundation. Two to three weeks later, he adds another 2-3 supers... I believe between the brood chambers and that first super of new foundation (which the bees may have worked at that point.)

    I'm going to transition 20 or so colonies to a three-deep system this season. Tim has been kind enough to advise me on how, with subsequent supering after those are in place. I may even try to treat some of my prolific "two-deep and a medium" hives in the 3-deep fashion this spring, just to see If I can get them going early.

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