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  1. #61
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Nelson, South Island, New Zealand
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    527

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Spoon View Post
    I've also directed her to this thread, so we might be able to hear from her directly.
    Can't wait to hear the latest news.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Plain English translation. - Under the forum rules, you are not a treatment free beekeeper.
    There's no evidence in the peer reviewed scientific literature that peppermint grease patties are an effective treatment for anything. It really is just sugar, Crisco, and peppermint.

    So, the VSH bees I obtained were developed by institutions.

    My BeeWeavers came from chemical free/organic beekeepers.

    Nope, I've never gotten bees from a 'treatment free' source. I don't think any of them sell bees or queens as far as I know.
    Last edited by WLC; 03-06-2014 at 04:24 AM.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,333

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Spoon View Post
    Unfortunately I don't think I can post attachments here?
    Here are the links:

    http://www.beesource.com/files/Rainb..._July_2013.pdf
    http://www.beesource.com/files/Rainb...r_May_2013.pdf
    Regards, Barry

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Thanks very much Barry, this is the info I received from Rae at Nelson Honey.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by virginiawolf View Post
    A fellow in my club had good luck with Russian queens.
    Thank for the input. We don't actually have Russians in New Zealand, and if we get them it will be a very careful laboratory process of importing semen and artificial insemination. We have tight (but unfortunately not very well controlled) biosecurity laws which make it illegal to bring new breeds into the country, for fear of damaging our ecosystem with interesting side effects (like varroa, for example).

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Well, the real question for Rae is, "Do you treat your VSH stocks?"

    If they do, you'll want to know some more details.

    $45 US, for an average of 40-44 %VSH is about $1 US for each % VSH.

    If you pay them $80 US, would they give you an 80% VSH queen?

    While I've read that 50% VSH is a minimum, and 75% VSH gives good resistance, I wouldn't turn my nose up at an average of 40% VSH.

    It might be enough for someone starting out w/ a TF horizontal hive.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,730

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Not here it won't.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Not here it won't.
    They've got a range of VSH going on in their apiary.

    OT: I don't know what VSH level you may have used when you tested out VSH in a treatment free setting.

    However, I've seen previous recommendations here in the U.S. for 35%.

    It's simple. Nick can try TF with any old queen and most likely lose the colony and become a local nuisance. Or, he can exercise some level of due diligence to mitigate that.

    Frankly, going TF in a horizontal hive gives you something to talk about. But, going TF in a horizontal hive using VSH genetics, now that's what I call an interesting conversation.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,730

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    With you WLC I'm happy for him to do that if he wants.

    I know what the results will be though, however a hard lesson is the best.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    OT:

    I started out TF with horizontal hives. Epic failures. I then used VSH. Better, but they couldn't handle the high heat conditions. Now, I've moved on to BeeWeavers, from Texas. Very edgy.

    I can empathize with Nick's situation.

    In my own opinion, it's very important for folks to not only develop resistant bee stocks, but it's also important for folks to support those who are developing those stocks.

    As for someone attempting TF beekeeping, I would advise them to do what they can to increase their chances of success, and avoid becoming the local nuisance beekeeper. 'Nuf said.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Franklin County, PA
    Posts
    458

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    I hope it goes well for you Nick!

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Spoon View Post
    In the eyes of this community, should a hobbyist:
    a. Go treatment free and hope the hive survives?
    b. Use "crutches" such as sugar dusting to knock excessive varroa numbers down, and otherwise hope for the best?
    c. Accept that treatment free is not possible with only one hive and to hit it with formic/oxylic/some other treatment?
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But in New Zealand, with one hive, treatment-free is impossible for very long. The mites have not been there long enough, you have too small a population, and one hive just isn't going to cut it. I strongly recommend against only one hive here in the states, but there, impossible. I'm sorry. To be treatment-free requires a population resource, the greater the population the greater the resource. The greater the population, the greater the chance that they won't all die at once. One hive leaves you no benefits of that concept.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,730

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Even small cell will not save you.

    Nick I have been trying to give you honest advice from someone who knows and is in NZ.

    I regularly see people lose hives cos they took advice from people who want to apply their abstract theories to NZ. I have read the info you posted, understand where your hive is at, and like I said before, if it is not treated it will be dead in a few months.

    Because I have seen this over and over, I'm even re-stocking people now, I have had to mentally detach myself somewhat from what people do to their bees, if they insist on not treating and standing by as they die I just leave it to them, they can buy more bees later, most people learn although some repeat the same mistakes.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    EDIT need to add to that post, it applies to NZ not US. In US there are obviously bees that can withstand mites so whole different ball game and all power to those who are treatment free.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    All it would take is a single hive with a VSH queen rated at 75%.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,280

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    All it would take is a single hive with a VSH queen rated at 75%.
    assuming year round availability of those queens, which is not the case......
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baker Oregon
    Posts
    2,367

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Around and around it goes, where it stops no body knows....
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 9 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    If you want to talk about the odds of Nick getting a VSH queen from Rainbow (open mated).

    The median and average is 40% and 44% VSH respectively. 6% are over 80% VSH.

    The odds that he'll get over 50% VSH are between 1:3 and 1:4. The odds that he'll score 75% are closer to 1:20.

    Of course, if he wants 75%, all he has to do is pay Rae the asking price. She does instrumental insemination.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,730

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    Yup it keeps going around.

    Like I said a while back WLC, Nick is welcome to do it according to your advice if he wishes, a hard lesson is best.

    How about we leave this circuitous discussion where it is, and Nick can come back and report his results in a few months.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Treatment free with a single hive?

    The odds are new and they're based on rainbows numbers (80 colonies).

    They also said that 58% tested over 35% VSH which is a standard benchmark. You also have a 50:50 chance of getting 40% plus VSH.

    As I've explained, the research I've read recommends 50% plus, but shows that at the 75% VSH mark, the mite count stays below the critical 5% mark.

    I forgot to add something for Nick, a TF beekeeper from New Mexico uses juniper as smoker fuel to help control mites.

    Useful to know.

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