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  1. #21
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Y
    But, as I went through it the bees were making swarm preparations. Because they do not want to expand way out sideways at this time of year if anything they will be wanting to contract, but they have all this feed, seems to them like everything is pumping, so they decide to send out a swarm even though the hive is 1/2 empty. I had to kill queen cells, spread out the brood nest, and tell them to stop feeding..
    None of my three long hives swarmed last year. They had no trouble contracting as fall approached-- as the brood nest shrank it just moved closer to the entrance end, leaving frames of honey on the far side of the brood. You do have to open the brood nest during buildup, which requires more attention that just stacking more boxes.

    On the other hand, I think one of them swarmed recently, during the beginning of spring buildup, which seems weird. I hadn't started opening it up yet, because we still had some cold weather coming and I didn't want to leave any brood stranded. I guess I should have.

    I'm hoping to try a Lazutin hive this year, which uses frames that are twice as deep as conventional Lang deeps. Maybe that will leave enough vertical space that I can keep the bees in the convenient manner that horizontal hives allow. Anyway, it'll be interesting to try. Should be an advantage in not having any separation between the combs, but with the vertical height of a double deep.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,819

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    None of my three long hives swarmed last year.
    Weren't they all start ups last year?

    Using those double deep combs will certainly allow the bees a more natural configuration but I've never gone for them myself because swarming is a natural behaviour, something the bees actually want to do. To prevent it if the hive is healthy, you have to interfere. This is more easily done when combs within the brood nest can be reversed, top to bottom.

    Thinking outside the box has it's merits, sometimes. But sometimes the box itself is the result of the cumulative wisdom of thousands of people over many years and should not be lightly dismissed.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #23

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    The long hives we use over here, called the T120 hives, are called "honey-cows", because they make a lot of honey, even with a usual frame size. And without swarms.

    Those hives are placed into a beehouse, which allows the bees to brood earlier, since inside a beehouse it is much warmer during spring. The hives in beehouses are always stronger in Spring than the hives outside.

    Those long hives get one super on top. This super can be slided back and forward on top of that long hive, so no lifting. With the super you can direkt the honey upwards and out of the broodnest. Hives is wintered with no super on.

    You make a queen split inside the hive for swarm prevention. The high double storey floor has two channels to allow a split inside a hive with a bee tight follower board.

    I find this hives very nice to work with and I would use them exclusively, if you just could transport them better and if you wouldn't need a beehouse for them. For a backyard beekeeper with no intention to move hives I do recommend them. I have some in use for a decade and as said the hives are fun to work with.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    See pictures at the end of the document: http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/Karl...120_script.pdf

  5. #25
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Bernhard, very interesting posts, as always. Are the bee houses heated? Could you explain how the channels in the floor work?
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Utah, USA
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    154

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    It occurs to me that this could be an issue of physics. I lost a strong hive already this winter and it appeared that they got above their honey reserves and either could not get down or for some strange reason died early. It was a Carniolan colony which I understand don't winter well, however since heat rises and it appears that bees normally place honey high in the hive and start winter low, the heat from the cluster naturally rises due to physics and that means the honey and space above them is naturally warmer, and bees working to create heat to stay alive, have very little margin between survivable temperatures above, VS below the cluster. It appears to be more difficult for the cluster to move down to colder reserves than up to warmer reserves. My own research on the web, and my own apiary, is revealing that lateral movement of smaller colonies is almost not possible, meaning that moving down to lower reserves is pretty much not possible, even for stronger hives.
    This makes total sense. If you were barely hanging on in a cold environment, by your own body heat, survival could come down to a difference of single digit degree changes! Bees are undoubtedly even more fragile under similar conditions.
    I placed my 5 hives side by side backed up against my Chicken coop with a foam pad behind them and pads on the outside facing left and right most hives. The colony I lost that was approximately 1 1/4 box of bees, was the outside right most hive (East) with a similar size hive immediately adjacent left. I expect there was probably only a couple of degrees difference between the two. When I discovered my dead hive, I immediately checked the remaining hives and found 2 others pretty much above the remaining honey. I immediately inverted them. Checking on them the next day, I found the inner hive had moved up and was now ok, however the left most hive in my group had appeared to be nearly dead. I was 5 frames in from the left (outside most edge of left most hive in hive group) before I found any live bees. I'm sure it was a stress to invert them, even though I did it as quickly as I could, but I felt it prudent, given my other dead hive. I immediately ran in and grabbed one of my in-hive warmer prototypes and placed it in the now half strength dying hive. I was elated to find that not only had the hive survived the next day, but the half that appeared dead the previous day, had actually revived and the colony was back to a full box of bees plus! Again, I believe only a degree or 2 difference within two halves of the same hive, between life or death!
    Last edited by warmbees; 03-04-2014 at 02:30 AM. Reason: Grammer and additional thought

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Good explanation Warmbees, and you are dead right that thermodynamics makes it easier for them to move into honey above them during a cold winter.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    660

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    I love working with my long hives. So nice to not have to pull the hive apart and to have the hive at a good height. Started of with a 2x10 frame, then made a 3x10 frame. I do super them, but leave access to the brood nest on the sides. Only thing that is annoying when supering is covering them to stop water going through them. Unless you put supers across the whole length. I use a sheet of plywood, or a sheet of plastic.

    I "Open the Sides", by placing a new frames between the outside edges of the Broodnest and the outside honey frames.

    It's also easy to make a split or raise queens in the one box as well.

    Here's a couple of photos:




  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Utah, USA
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    154

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Matt, I love your hive. It's almost too nice to get dirty! I saw one other like yours on another post and the only thing it had different was a hinged roof that swung over to cover the whole hive.
    Due to health issues and lifting, my brother and I experimented with some horizontal configurations for a dual queen hive. We came up with a modified 10 deep configuration with the main bodies clasped together side by side, and several rows of 1.5" holes drilled through the sides. We tacked queen excluders on the sides to prevent the queens from meeting. I built some half covers to accommodate shared supers. Worked fairly well, but where it was placed, the South side got a little more sun, and by late season, the bees had mostly migrated to the South side. We eventually lost the queen on the North, and were not successful requeening it the rest of the season, in spite of multiple attempts.

    DualQueen_Horizontal.jpg

  10. #30
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    Dec 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    1,614

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Once the worker bees chose a stronger queen they will not accept the newly introduced queen unless you completely
    separate them into 2 hives. I lost 2 good laying queens running a double queen horizontal barrel hive. From now
    on no more double queens unless I can separate them into 2 sections. The workers from the stronger hive will balled on
    the weaker colony's queen once they are in the wrong side. Maybe the smell of the queen is different.

  11. #31
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    Mar 2014
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    Clinton, Utah, USA
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    154

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    Once the worker bees chose a stronger queen they will not accept the newly introduced queen unless you completely
    separate them into 2 hives. I lost 2 good laying queens running a double queen horizontal barrel hive. From now
    on no more double queens unless I can separate them into 2 sections. The workers from the stronger hive will balled on
    the weaker colony's queen once they are in the wrong side. Maybe the smell of the queen is different.
    We came to pretty much the same conclusion. You pretty much have to establish the colonies totally separately prior to combining. We came to that conclusion because of the bees favoring one side and abandoning one queen. Once the colonies are established and queen happy, then you can combine them without the abandonment issue, and I suspect that they are also, then less likely to ball a queen since there are many more bees associated with both smells. There are many beeks out there that practice dual queen hives successfully so we know it can be done. We had moderate success last year and did succeed in growing several colonies much faster than normal. I will say that we struggled with queens though. We lost several throughout the year and had to make more, which hampered progress with a 3 week delay each time.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    Clinton, Utah, USA
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    154

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    So Matt, have you tried dual queens in your horizontal hive?
    Workingtosavetheworld1beeatatime:-)~ Researching winter loss prevention- 12 yrs, 2 recent - 10 Hives, WARMBEES.COM

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    660

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Yes, I'm running the hive above as a two queen hive. I also ran the previous long hive as a two queen hive. Will also be setting that old hive up as a two queen hive again.

    Here's a link to a thread about that:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...fferent-breeds

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    Clinton, Utah, USA
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    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Thanks for the thread. Very interesting and informative. Several points from that thread that agree with our results last year. We brought in 2 carniolan queens last year to try and take advantage of the hygenics. We placed one in a single hive by herself and I attempted to dual queen a second hive with the second one, by adding her to the queenless side. At first they seemed to accept her and she was there for about 2 weeks before I noticed her gone. I don't know what happened to her, but if I remember correctly, she must have been superseded. This was one of the cases, that led us to conclude that we need to establish a hive first and then combine for dual queen.

    One observation I did make with regard to Carniolans is that they are very agressive about robbing. We had tried to establish several nucs after bringing in carniolans, and it proved to be quite difficult due to a high degree of robbing from carniolans. I will say that we did succeed in taking advantage of the hygenics by swapping frames of brood between italian hives and the carniolan hive. That way we had carniolans in every hive, and italians in the carniolan hive. We did this late in the season after we found that the carniolan hive refused to enter the super that we placed on the hive. After swapping frames with the italians, we then had italians hatching in the carniolan hive that then would go up in the super.

    By years end, the carniolan hive had grown to about a box and a half of bees before winter. Sadly though we lost the carniolan sometime in early February.

    Other than the high tendency for robbing, the exchange program of shaking off all bees from frames of capped brood and exchanging just the brood between hives worked very well. No bees were harmed in the process since all odor issues were gone by the time they hatch, and they take on the smell of the host hive. So we end up with mixed genetics without rejection. We still have carniolans in multiple hives this spring. I'm sure there was some mix during mating, and some of the new supersede queens probably carry some of the genetics.
    Last edited by warmbees; 03-09-2014 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Changed some verbage for clearer understanding.
    Workingtosavetheworld1beeatatime:-)~ Researching winter loss prevention- 12 yrs, 2 recent - 10 Hives, WARMBEES.COM

  15. #35
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    Dec 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Isn't it too much work to exchange so many frames of brood frames? Wouldn't it be better to just
    requeen them all with the hygenic daughter queens. There are both Italian and Carni hygenic queens
    you know. That way you don't have to work as hard.
    Gratefulness is the key to a happy lifeIf we are not grateful then we will not be happy since we always want something +

  16. #36
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    Mar 2014
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    Clinton, Utah, USA
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    Big Grin Re: Why not horizontal?

    In our case, we were experimenting for the first time with carniolans, so we just wanted to see the interaction and try to see the benefits that are suggested. So it wasn't alot of work actually. Frankly shaking off a frame and swapping was a lot easier than working to requeen. We also were not yet sure we wanted the carniolan strain to be permanent. We definitely liked their temperment! They were hands down the nicest bees in the yard! Had no problem working them with zero protection! They may be more hygenic, but they were not very organized in their honey layout with double decker comb and after finishing a frame with shallower cells, turned around and made more comb on top of capped cells. With Langstroth hive bodies, our italians made nice even combs on all the frames, while the carniolans would leave tunnels or patches un-drawn, bridge out away from the foundation and take one frame very wide in spots with the adjacent frame shorter cells to match. Made for a very interesting comb structure. Either way, it was excellent honey! It was interesting to find the queen move her brood chamber clear to one side with the bees filling in honey horizontally in the bottom box. They left the super un-touched for two months, until I added the italian brood, after which they did move up. I may have also taken the full deep super off for other reason since they were not using it, and later replaced it with a half-high, which they did eventually fill mostly before winter.

    Additionally, we found the carniolans to be very aggressive robbers! We tried to split several nucs off for the purpose of creating queens, but the carniolans would overpower these nucs and absolutely rob them of all honey. They eventually killed one right off! I choked them down so only 1 or two bees could get in or out to try and give the nuc the ability to defend. The carniolans were so aggressive, they would draw out the guards and then just enter in mass, totally overwhelming the small nucs. I really didn't like this behavior! Course they did eventually get the best of us with a true cruel joke from mother nature. I had an empty box nearby to catch a swarm and we began to observe what appeared to be a swarm coming to that box, so we set up chairs and brought out the neighbors and the whole family to watch the big event. We watched what looked like a long slower swarm enter the box and eventually die down toward dark. At the end we opened the lid to see the new addition to the apiary, only to find an empty box! The carniolans had us hook line and sinker. Made us look pretty silly! We enjoyed a good laugh!

    I would totally block a nuc being attacked for days even. I was amazed that literally within 1 to 2 minutes of un-blocking the nuc, they would be back like a swam! Anybody that thinks there is not intelligence in lower life forms should see this! It's obvious there is a high enough level of communication to get this info back to the mother hive and communicate that the hive is unblocked and where it is located! If I have this happen again, I will video the experience and time it for a demonstration. I'll have to look through the videos I have to see if I caught this timing! I certainly have video of this aggressive behavior! Incredible!
    Last edited by warmbees; 03-10-2014 at 01:48 AM. Reason: Additional thought.
    Workingtosavetheworld1beeatatime:-)~ Researching winter loss prevention- 12 yrs, 2 recent - 10 Hives, WARMBEES.COM

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    660

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Interesting. My Carniolans drew out comb better than the Italians (now they are are mix of both). I haven't seen any problems with them robbing either.

  18. #38
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    Dec 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    1,614

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    I definitely think it is the genetic of his carnies. Need to select more to get the desired traits.
    Or buy better carnie queens if that would help. Nice sharing experience though.
    Gratefulness is the key to a happy lifeIf we are not grateful then we will not be happy since we always want something +

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Lipik, Croatia
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    In our case, we were experimenting for the first time with carniolans, so we just wanted to see the interaction and try to see the benefits that are suggested. So it wasn't alot of work actually. Frankly shaking off a frame and swapping was a lot easier than working to requeen. We also were not yet sure we wanted the carniolan strain to be permanent. We definitely liked their temperment! They were hands down the nicest bees in the yard! Had no problem working them with zero protection! They may be more hygenic, but they were not very organized in their honey layout with double decker comb and after finishing a frame with shallower cells, turned around and made more comb on top of capped cells. With Langstroth hive bodies, our italians made nice even combs on all the frames, while the carniolans would leave tunnels or patches un-drawn, bridge out away from the foundation and take one frame very wide in spots with the adjacent frame shorter cells to match. Made for a very interesting comb structure. Either way, it was excellent honey! It was interesting to find the queen move her brood chamber clear to one side with the bees filling in honey horizontally in the bottom box. They left the super un-touched for two months, until I added the italian brood, after which they did move up. I may have also taken the full deep super off for other reason since they were not using it, and later replaced it with a half-high, which they did eventually fill mostly before winter.

    Additionally, we found the carniolans to be very aggressive robbers! We tried to split several nucs off for the purpose of creating queens, but the carniolans would overpower these nucs and absolutely rob them of all honey. They eventually killed one right off! I choked them down so only 1 or two bees could get in or out to try and give the nuc the ability to defend. The carniolans were so aggressive, they would draw out the guards and then just enter in mass, totally overwhelming the small nucs. I really didn't like this behavior! Course they did eventually get the best of us with a true cruel joke from mother nature. I had an empty box nearby to catch a swarm and we began to observe what appeared to be a swarm coming to that box, so we set up chairs and brought out the neighbors and the whole family to watch the big event. We watched what looked like a long slower swarm enter the box and eventually die down toward dark. At the end we opened the lid to see the new addition to the apiary, only to find an empty box! The carniolans had us hook line and sinker. Made us look pretty silly! We enjoyed a good laugh!

    I would totally block a nuc being attacked for days even. I was amazed that literally within 1 to 2 minutes of un-blocking the nuc, they would be back like a swam! Anybody that thinks there is not intelligence in lower life forms should see this! It's obvious there is a high enough level of communication to get this info back to the mother hive and communicate that the hive is unblocked and where it is located! If I have this happen again, I will video the experience and time it for a demonstration. I'll have to look through the videos I have to see if I caught this timing! I certainly have video of this aggressive behavior! Incredible!
    We have only carnies here and of course robbing occur also with them, but.. At my apiari-es I never had robbing even when I placed small mating nucs beside production colony. Maybe some try outs to see is the hive with or without queen. In fact I learned if hive has a queen and are healthy don't have to worry about robbing. For now that seems very true.
    I heard some "serial" robbing relative near me ( about dozen colonies) - but the reason was heavy varroa infestation.

    About robbing, I heard italian bees are more for it.. So when you mentioned carnies and robbing that was strange to me..

    About long hives, here some work with them ( more as old tradition) and yields can get as with langs. Options to work with them are many also. But they are heavy..... As told frame sizes vary, but heard for 40x30cm, 30x40cm, etc.. Also numbers of frames vary. " Pološka"

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Utah, USA
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    154

    Default Re: Why not horizontal?

    Thanks Goran, great feedback. I'll consider that maybe I had something else going on and won't be quick to rule out carnies for that reason. Sounds like a great reason to try them again. The robbing was my strongest objection. I can get past the funky honey comb, although I hear that isn't necessarily normal either. They were by far the most docile strain of bees I've ever seen. I was perfectly comfortable opening that hive to show neighbors or such without any protection for anybody. Never got attacked.

    Sounds like I better bring in another queen this year and try again. I was sad to learn of the demise of that hive. What has been your experience with overwintering Carnies? I've hear they don't do as well as italians...
    Workingtosavetheworld1beeatatime:-)~ Researching winter loss prevention- 12 yrs, 2 recent - 10 Hives, WARMBEES.COM

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