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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,573

    Default True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Is this really a factual statement? In all cases?

    This is marketing copy to sell a product to Beesource readers (in the sponsors and vendors forum). A product that is illegal to use in the United States. Making claims that simply aren't true to sell the product is crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed.

    You will notice that no one else that sells vaporizers makes such a claim...there is a reason for that.

    deknow

    Even if you have some brood, you can treat. OA will not harm either the brood or the queen. However, it will NOT kill any mites that may be in the brood.
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    884

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Cannot speak for vaporizing OA, as I have never vaporized, but when it is used as a dribble, it can cause very mild brood damage. When it is used in the spring, they seem to come on like gangbusters after usage. However, if you dribble more than once on winter bees you can damage your bees, shortening their lifespans at the very time you need them to live the longest.

    I have used OA as a dribble for a number of years, never more than once a year and only in the years when they need it, with good results. This year, for instance, I had no mites in my last mite check, so I did not dribble. However, I am in the deep south so my winter bees do not need to survive nearly as long as your northern winter bees do, and I do think this makes a difference in my results.

    JMO

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,973

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    I've used it both when hives had brood and when they didn't and have never been able to detect any negative effects at all.
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Warrior, Alabama
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Many statements will be found to untrue if you push the variables.

    Make the acid stronger, treat too many times, close them up too long after treatment, etc.

    You can kill a child by making them drink too much water, booze in reasonable moderation rarely is a factor in car accidents, too many vitamins will kill you, too little salt and you die - too much does the same thing in a different way.

    Sadly most things require a degree of "following the instructions" or moderation.
    Old Guy in Alabama

  5. #5

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Short term negative effect of oxalic acid in Apis mellifera iberiensis
    R Martín-Hernández, M Higes, JL Pérez, MJ … - Spanish Journal of Agricultural Research, 2007
    http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/a...2406&info=link

    Cell death in honeybee (Apis mellifera) larvae treated with oxalic or formic acid
    http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/...4/05/M4027.pdf

    Summary
    Select colony-associated fungi (bee isolates), Absidia sp., Ascosphaera apis, Aspergillus flavus, Fusarium sp., Penicillium glabrum, Mucor sp., showed a 40% reduction in radial growth rate with formic acid, a 28% reduction with oxalic acid, and a 15% reduction with fructose and highfructose corn syrup (HFCS) when grown on supplemented media at 30°C to mimic colony conditions. No effect, suppressing orpromoting growth, was observed on other colony-associated fungi, Alternaria sp., Aspergillus niger, Cladosporium cladosporioides, Rhizopus sp.and Trichoderma sp., except 0.1 M formic and oxalic acid. Sensitivity to these compounds did not correlate with the fungus species being aslow- or fast-grower and sensitivity to one compound did not translate to sensitivity to another compound. Given the competitive natureand high-sporing (conidia) activity of these species, our results suggest that alteration or disruption of the colony\mycoflora can occur by use of these compounds. This may indicate a possible link between compound application and incidence of bee fungal pathogens.
    http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10...ND44075806.pdf

    Sublethal effects of oxalic acid on Apis mellifera
    Apidologie (2012) 43: 218-225; Schneider, Eisenhardt, Rademacher
    http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs...l-00930304.pdf

    Also see: http://www.jiventure.info/Overview_o..._in_Beekeeping

    To sum it up in my own words, oxalic acid does harm the gut of the bees and it softens the chitin skin of the bees. It has a sublethal effect on bees which can be seen by a slightly slower brood development in Spring. It also has it effects on the microbiom of the bee hive. (It has been found, that it doesn't harm the pseudoscorpions in a hive, on the other hand.)

    So as is with every sort of chemical treatment it does some harm. I find it a mild treatment compared to other treatments. From my experience vaporizing is not reliable enough. You have to treat when the cluster is not tight yet and some brood is present. If brood is present you have to treat at least three times every two weeks, most treat four times. Some remove all brood combs and treat two times. Too much work for me. I stick with dribbling. There are lot of possibilities why vaporizing can fail and sometimes it does. Nothing can go wrong with dribbling (with the exception you completely drench them).

    When dribbling swarms or splits in summer you find dead bees in the front regularily.

    I never experienced or heared of queens be affected by oxalic acid.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Millbury, MA, USA
    Posts
    1,811

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    I've used it both when hives had brood and when they didn't and have never been able to detect any negative effects at all.
    I've had the same results

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
    Posts
    335

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    I've used it both when hives had brood and when they didn't and have never been able to detect any negative effects at all.
    And the same here.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,919

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Who cares, the stuff works.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,060

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Is this really a factual statement? In all cases?

    This is marketing copy to sell a product to Beesource readers (in the sponsors and vendors forum). Making claims that simply aren't true to sell the product is crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed. deknow
    Dean, perhaps you should spend more time researching OAV (so as to not look so foolish) prior to posting. From my own experience and from the experiences of many others here in the US, on BeeSource and around the world, OAV does NOT harm the brood or queen.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Laurel Hill, Fl
    Posts
    428

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Who cares, the stuff works.
    Bingo, we have a winner...

  11. #11

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Is it just me....or does it seem like this dead horse has been thoroughly beaten already?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,060

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    does it seem like this dead horse has been thoroughly beaten already?
    Dean (BS member Deknow) brought in a new horse to beat.......!
    Last edited by snl; 02-28-2014 at 08:14 AM.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  13. #13

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    I find relentless product promotion veiled as innocent thread posts equally annoying.....and would be happy to see that dead horse buried as well.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Bayboro,NC,USA
    Posts
    242

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    That horse is now dog food. I have also tried both and found no ill effects.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,573

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Do the manufacturers of Thessaly devices make such claims?
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Chesterfield, NH
    Posts
    490

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    You do realize that you use this product (Oxalic Acid) off label This not approved to be used in beehives in the USA and yes I do know is in the food chain already (Oxalic Acid). Remember one thing the chemical companies will tell you that the label is the law.






    BEE HAPPY Jim 134
    Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA.
    http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

  17. #17

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Quote Originally Posted by dadandsonsbees View Post
    That horse is now dog food. I have also tried both and found no ill effects.
    You've tried horse and dog food? I find it hard to imagine no ill effects.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  18. #18

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Do the manufacturers of Thessaly devices make such claims?
    Don't get me started Dean....next up....publishers who don't do any due diligence before printing.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  19. #19

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    My apologies folks....I'm in a foul mood today....without any real excuse.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,573

    Default Re: True Statement? "OA will not harm either brood or the queen."

    Dan, I've always been willing to discuss issues anyone has with what I've written online and in our book.

    SNL, is this email that just came to my inbox from you?
    Dean,
    You are a small, small, little man……….
    *
    Larry
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

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