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  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
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    811

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    What is not being considered is the effect of wrapping on wind driven heat loss. Not through the potential cracks, but the heat loss from the hive when the boundary layer is constantly blown away. Still air conditions are not where wrapping really benefits.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
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    1,162

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Wrap half a bee yard and leave the other half unwrapped (we used roofing paper). When we did this we noticed the wrapped hives started flying in earnest hours earlier. It was a little unsettling when we pulled into the yard one morning and half the hives were very quiet and the other half was vigorously flying. Solar gain can have a profound affect on initiation of bee flight earlier.

    Something all orchardists should consider before the send us deep into the orchard under a full canopy. If the bees get to work earlier, more work gets done.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KC, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,168

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    I like your tests.
    Would the shielded hive be the best for winter survival? If your shielded material was black it would be even better.

    Absorbing the sunlight is just part of the benefit of being wrapped/insulated.

    Could you measure how long the hive can retain the heat? Maybe you could add a gallon of hot water to each hive and take temps as the water cools. I bet the shielded hive would do the best.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO United States
    Posts
    377

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by JBJ View Post
    Wrap half a bee yard and leave the other half unwrapped (we used roofing paper). When we did this we noticed the wrapped hives started flying in earnest hours earlier. It was a little unsettling when we pulled into the yard one morning and half the hives were very quiet and the other half was vigorously flying. Solar gain can have a profound affect on initiation of bee flight earlier.

    Something all orchardists should consider before the send us deep into the orchard under a full canopy. If the bees get to work earlier, more work gets done.
    However, in winter, doesn't this wrapping/insulation/solar gain "fool" the bees into thinking it is warmer outside the box then it really is only to break from the cluster and enter the outside world to freeze? Or is this just an insufficient number of bees?

  5. #45
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Rockford, MI
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    2,586

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    I did wrap my hives last winter with tar paper and did loose a few bees (100 or so max) per hive. It s pretty insignificant compared to the THOUSANDS that froze to death this winter as I did not wrap. I WILL wrap from now on and take the chance of loosing a few hundred.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    658

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Wrapping with black and insulation on three sides can definitely fool bees into cleansing flights when ambient it too cold.

    In my first year, i added 2 inch of styrofoam on east, west and north side of hive as well as outer cover and under bottom board and then wrapped with black building paper. With that much insulation(minimal heat loss happening) and solar gain of south side, bees were being fooled into cleansing flights. Have added 1/2 styrofoam on front side in past two years and then black paper wrap and little false flights.

    Going further, with a black wrap, I think one will get some solar gain but also there is considerable loss to the atmosphere on the sides out of the sun.
    If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    The mass of wax, wood, and honey would obviously absorb heat and contribute to the "warmth" of the hive's interior.
    I haven't been able to think of a good way to test this theory; but do you really think that 8 hrs of sunshine adding 10 or so degrees to a hives internal temp is going to increase 60-100 lbs of honey that is at ambient temp by any measurable amount?

    If you put that 80 lbs of honey in a pot on a tea light how long is it going to take to increase it by one degree?
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
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    2,887

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Mike: You can wrap all 700 of your hives in just over 11 hrs?

    What do you do with all that wrap in the off season? Or do you just buy new every year and put last years pile in the landfill?
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
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    2,887

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Beeman View Post
    I did wrap my hives last winter with tar paper and did loose a few bees (100 or so max) per hive. It s pretty insignificant compared to the THOUSANDS that froze to death this winter as I did not wrap. I WILL wrap from now on and take the chance of loosing a few hundred.
    You had a thread on here last January about a hive which died, if you only lost 100 or so max I now know why it died and it had nothing to do with the wrapping.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
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    2,887

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    Haha. No autographs, pleeze . . .

    More ignorance confession - what do tags do? Do they function the same as the words in the thread title?
    scroll to the bottom of the main forum page and you will see current users. It will say something like 120 registered users and 524 guests. Many of those guests are "Spiders". They crawl web sites looking for key words to insert into search engine results. The tags concentrate search results. That is the short and sweet answer save you all that reading on something that doesn't "mater".
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Rockford, MI
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    2,586

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    You had a thread on here last January about a hive which died, if you only lost 100 or so max I now know why it died and it had nothing to do with the wrapping.

    LAST January would be THIS winter in which I didn't wrap. I wrapped LAST winter (not this winter) and only lost hundreds.
    Hope that clears things up for you.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,958

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post

    If you put that 80 lbs of honey in a pot on a tea light how long is it going to take to increase it by one degree?
    I would not compare Solar energy to a tea light. Actually I suspect that not only woudl the honey serve as a far better source for the heat to be transferred to. But I also suspect it will hold onto that heat for much longer. This test is measuring air. Keep in mind air is a poor conductor of heat and gives it up readily. I would be interested in the same sort of measurements but with the probe on frames of honey. It might lend some understanding of why bees tend to not only have honey on their outside frames. but practically wrap themselves in it.

    The air temperature that is being measured will only remain stable or even rise a bit due to a constant and fairly strong source feeding it. as soon as that source is gone the air will cool rapidly.

    For example, you car setting in the sun with the windows up. It gets hot inside. The seat is to hot to set on the steering wheel to hot to touch. but as soon as you open the door what is the first thing that cools off? You can actually feel the air cool. This is partially due to the air can move and be replaced with cooler air. this is true. but a lot of that cooling is due to the airs ability to release heat.

    How do we know that air releasing heat is part of why the air cools so fast? Think about it. not everything can give up heat as fast as air can. the steering wheel cannot. the dash cannot the seat cannot. If the air could only give up heat at the same rate those other objects could. the air would remain as hot as they are. In fact they are all pumping heat out attempting to do just that. but they cannot keep up with airs rate of heat loss. We quickly learn that if we move more air across those hot objects that they cool even faster. Roll down the windows and drive.

    Truth is air serves best as a means to carry heat away. it cannot serve both as a coolant and a heat storage. For this reason measure air for a reading of warmth is not the best choice.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Lassen, California, USA
    Posts
    133

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Yes Thanks so much for sharing! That was very interesting and informative.

  14. #54
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    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
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    2,887

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Beeman View Post
    LAST January would be THIS winter in which I didn't wrap. I wrapped LAST winter (not this winter) and only lost hundreds.
    Hope that clears things up for you.
    Not really; I call Jan 8th 2013 last winter: http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...I-need-answers
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Quincy, Mass USA
    Posts
    220

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Much appreciate your excellent work!

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,373

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    Mike: You can wrap all 700 of your hives in just over 11 hrs?

    What do you do with all that wrap in the off season? Or do you just buy new every year and put last years pile in the landfill?

    No, of course not. There's more to it than putting on the wrap. Time for the wrap alone is a minute...so in an apiary it adds a half hour to the job. Wort the time in my opinion.

    The wraps are held on with 4 staples in the back of the hive where the paper comes together, and two be the upper entrance. In the spring, you pop the staples off with the corner of the hive tool and the wrap falls off. Fold it sling the creases made by the hive corners and put away fon another year. They last for years.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Rockford, MI
    Posts
    2,586

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Good to know bluegrass. I appreciate your insight.
    I also read through some of your past posts and are getting a better understanding of your personality. What I can't figure out is if you are a "glass half full" or "glass half empty" personality.
    I have a hunch though.
    How long have you been a nurse? I was in the medical field myself years back.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Beeman View Post
    What I can't figure out is if you are a "glass half full" or "glass half empty" personality.
    I am more of a call it half full or half empty, it is all the same kind of a Guy.

    I started in Nursing in 08, worked as a commercial truck driver before that and about a dozen other things.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,458

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Without measuring temperature over time you don't know the heat loss or gain. You really need data acquisition to do this.

    I suspect what MP said highlights the benefits of wrapping. Whether or not early flight ends up in a net gain of work done will depend on heat loss when the sun goes down. You could gain time in the morning and loose it all in the evening.

    I don't wrap and I have wide open SBB's. I can't say that wrapping increases survival where I live but it might affect production. Production is not my focus so I wouldn't know if it helps or not.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,593

    Default Re: Solar Gain Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I can't say that wrapping increases survival where I live but it might affect production.
    Really?

    What would they be "producing" when it's normally too cool / cold to fly and there's nothing in bloom?
    Last edited by BeeCurious; 03-02-2014 at 10:06 AM.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

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