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Bee-Pro® Pollen Substitute

40K views 29 replies 9 participants last post by  FlowerPlanter 
#1 ·
Im have been in the protein patty kind of mood this last week.

I found this on Mann Lakes website;

FD-330 Soft Patties 45 lb bulk box
We've been working hard to get you the softer yet
nutritionally complete patty you've been asking for.

Formulated to meet the nutritional needs of honey bees
Balanced amino acid profile
Contains Pro-Health feeding stimulant to speed consumption and aid in digestive tract health
Formulated with Probiotics!!
Ultra fine milling to ensure complete digestibility
Bulk patty format means no paper to mess with
Soft formula presses between boxes with ease
Ideal for those beekeepers looking to feed 3-5 lbs per feeding
Priced to provide an excellent performance to cost ratio


US price per lbs is $1.10.

has anyone used this Sub? How well do the bees eat it? Does it dry out?
 
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#2 ·
I've never used the pre-made patties. I buy the dry and mix it.

The bees take it as well as any...and I've used several. Most colonies gobble it down, while some seemingly ignore it. Same with every brand I've used. Does it work? How would one know? The take it down, and build up well, but would they have built up anyway?

Mix it wet enough and it won't dry out before they take it.
 
#3 ·
I used 750 lbs of it last year(it was on sale ) so thought I'd try some. It was easy to work with (plastic bag inside a cardboard box)and the bees ate it all with no waste. They kept on raising brood in a pollen dearth so figured it was ok. But I can mix my own with yeast or Beepro dry ingredient as the base at a lower cost ,so thats what I do.
 
#6 ·
Yes ,I add a quart each of canola and corn oil to each batch , plus some animal probiotics "Probios® Dispersable Powder" (not sure if this helps, but no downside I could tell) and the last nosema check I did showed very few spores. But that could be from other factors.
I dont know which probiotics are in Mann Lakes sub,if its the animal version, likely these aren't the correct strains for bees anyways. Maybe someone could find out?
 
#7 ·
I bought about 500 lbs. of this last year, and am looking to do the same this year. The bees seem to love it. When placed between the brood chambers they devour it. Since it goes by rather quickly it's nice to be able to put 3-5 lbs. at a time.

I've had it dry out on weak (queenless I suppose) nucs after sitting there for 3 weeks - 1 month. Other than that they always eat it 100%.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Great feed back guys.

anyway, Im also playing around with mixing up some very basic patty recipes. I'm going to ask for some feed back here, from you protein sub mixing pro's, so bear with me and my questions. I'm just trying to figure somethings out. I am very unhappy with the patties I have available to buy right now, though I have not tried out this last Mann Lake soft Sub mix.

What Im looking for a Sub that is soft, will not dry out, does not run or stick and is very palatable to the bees.

So what I'm finding while I'm mixing up 1/2 lbs batches in the kitchen is most all of the equation here can be solved with the oil content in the patty.
Does the increased amount of oil decrease the palatability of the patty?
 
#11 ·
A 50 lbs bag of yeast or beepro, and around 10 gallons of syrup(half sucrose and half corn)plus other;) ingredients. I have been using a couple of cement mixers for this, but its really too slow and I need to get a mortar mixer of some sort to mix it faster and in bigger batches.

Any suggestions on a good mortar mixer for this?
 
#14 ·
I'm far from a Pro!
The things I think help keep desired consistency.
I found that products with soy flour seemed to dry out the quickest. I don't use it.
I also use oil on the higher % side.
I took 1/2 the sugar I use and inverted it. (Heat with acid).

I also use secret ingredients that my cousin told me about. She works as a waitress in Amador county and overheard a customer talking.
 
#16 ·
Not sure this totally applies to your mixtures, but from what i've seen on several other postings, if you keep your sugar water temp at 235 degrees instead of the usual 242 the product seems to stay 'softer'. I tried a beepro/sugar water mixture a couple of weeks ago on a single hive and they devoured it with a week. I took the beepro receipe, cut it in 1/2, poured it into 2 11x14 pans to keep it 'thinner' and after it cooled - cut 'slices' which are about 2" wide x 11" and put in the hive over the brood. Within 1 week they consumed 1 slice, and they consumed the 2nd slice in 4 days. brood has increased, which is what I wanted - to jump start the hive as this was one of my smaller hives to over winter.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Wow Mike, thats what I have been looking for! I visit Randys site all the time, but missed that page!

Im seeing Inedible Dried eggs as being one of the mixes to boost protien. Also Brewers Yeast as the main source of protein.

Looks like Im going to be experimenting on a few recipes this spring!

One question,
David Hackenberg’s formula shows not only citric acid but he actually tossed in a whole lemon. Why?
 
#19 ·
Randy Oliver has been an inspiration to me and I see he has been an inspiration to other beekeepers as well.
Why? Because he recognizes issues in our beekeeping industry and openly looks for solutions. His relentless search for answers is refreshing to me as many of the questions he is seeking to answer is exactly the same ones Im trying to answer. Has anyone noticed how open and forth coming he is with everything he does? No secrets, no hidden agenda, just good old beekeeping trial, test and discussion. One thing I notice in the beekeeping community is that so many beekeepers keep everything close to their chest. No sharing, everyone using their own trade secrets. And what advantage does that exactly provide? Non,
(except for the fellow selling his trade secrets, thats a different)

One thing I like about this beesource forum is the open discussion and sharing of ideas. Its a great resource for anyone seeking out answers!!
 
#20 ·
I add both citric acid and vitamin c. Lemon,I dont know. Citrus bioflavonoids maybe?
Never used inedible whole eggs , but did use dried egg yolk for a few years, along with irradiated pollen ,when it was available.

I know I said there was no waste with Mann lakes soft bulk. But as anyone knows, the weak and queenless hives will not use as much and it will dry out if not removed. But I have also seen hives with drone layers gobble up 3 pounds in a week. The result is LOTS more drone brood!
 
#21 ·
Its fun to joke about secret ingredients and all, but really , the information is out there. My own recipe is always evolving. It was at least 30 years ago when I first noticed that bees would dwindle here in California's late dry summer dearth. Bees in some locations would be much stronger than others because of certain pollens that were available. So we started feeding a brewers yeast and honey mix to the bees in the worst locations in late summer and there was an improvement.I think the subs that are available now are much better than what was around then.
 
#23 ·
Its fun to joke about secret ingredients and all, but really , the information is out there.
yes they are, but not forth coming. Your providing most all you put in your patty, I appreciate that. I wonder if some of the "secret ingredients " is more so illusion? or perhaps they are adding stuff they personally think will help but embarrassed to mention it to other beekeepers? I know when I started talking bout patty recipes on my blog, I hesitated actually stating anything particular because its very intimidating providing your thoughts and actions to thousands of readers
 
#22 ·
Thanks for the input Mike!

Say, just between you and me... how the heck do these guys make up their patties that dont crack and harden? I know that when a patty is placed over the brood, the warmth and moisture given off the nest keep those patties from drying out and dried up patties is mostly a result from trying to feed a troubled hive, BUT I have seen a product on the market that its patty keeps its consistency even after weeks sitting on the outer edges of the hive. No wax paper to keep it moist, no cluster to keep it moist, its consistency was that of play dough... thats what my patty making goal is.
 
#24 ·
Another point about feeding sub that is often missed by those who think bees wont eat good sub. IT HAS TO BE PLACED AS CLOSE TO THE BROOD AS POSSIBLE . Not at the top of a double deep full of honey with the brood in the bottom. Here , in late winter, that means breaking open the boxes and putting it right over the early brood that is getting started. Keith Jarret has a good video on youtube showing the right way to do this.

This isnt directed at you, Ian, but all those I see on here who say bees just waste sub and will not eat it. My bees will eat sub even when there is plenty of good pollen available! But such feeding is a waste of course.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I didn't post links to common recipes because I thought they where well known.

Here is Hackenbergs

http://hackenbergapiaries.org/pdf/Protein Patty Recipe.pdf

His recipe is geared to fit his needs.
I took some cues from him.
Higher sugar content to promote rapid consumption to combat SHB.
I think he also believes that something about whole egg powder deters SHB, so that is used in place of dried egg yolk. I haven't tried yolk alone yet.
Soy is left out with the feeling that SHB prefer it and it's properties tend to create a patty that dries out rock hard. I found this to be true. I add soy isolate.
Hackenbergs recipe calls for honey, I believe the intent was to not only add to attractiveness but moisture, I replaced this and some water with inverted sugar and increased HBH.

Here is a link to the recipe I started with.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Sub-Improvement&highlight=Pollen+improvements

It's short of perfect nutrition and I'm still not sure what items will round it out.
I use cinnamon but can't really find any proof that there is a benefit.
The protein % is low due to higher sugar content.

I have a feeling that commercial sub producers are having their protein custom milled and the base is at least in part very different than what you or I could practically obtain.

Here are a few more interesting links

http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2010/03/m09120.pdf


http://www.jas.org.pl/jas_50_1_2006_2.pdf


http://www.inkcorrosion.org/reports/000592/front.pdf

http://www.entsoc.org/PDF/Pubs/Periodicals/JEE/JEETOCS/PDF/ec069801284.pdf

The recipe has evolved and I've replaced and added ingredients they aren't really secrets just my attempt at improvements.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Mbeck : I missed that 2nd thread you posted. Interesting.
Our recipe is always evolving too, as new information on bee nutrition becomes available. The idea is to duplicate as close as possible good natural pollen . No lab analysis here, just trial and error. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

As for drying out, Mann Lakes mixing instructions on the Beepro bag recommends to NOT use sugar syrup as it dries it out too quickly.I use Prosweet, which Mann Lake delivers. I think the oil helps also.I am happy with the sub I use now, but may up the oil some.

Also, on the soy , I always stayed away from it mostly using Brewtech yeast from Pat Heitkam. I believe Beepro is a mix of yeast and soy flour. I haven't noticed any problems with it yet. But not sure if its any better than the brewtech yeast based sub.
 
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