Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 209
  1. #61
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,679

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I'm sure Mike believes whatever he believes quite sincerely, but I can make no sense of it. Selection occurs whether or not bees are treated-- there is no way to avoid it.
    There are many ways of damping it and some are so effective that they amount to complete removal of adaptive pressure.

    I can back that statement up with multiple citations from primary sources and specific studies.

    Can you supply evidence for your belief?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    There's no magic suspension of the process just because some condition or other in the hive has changed. If the major pressure is varroa, and a large percentage of colonies in an area succumb to varroasis...
    If. If. In an apiary setting every effort is made to keep all alive. Selective pressure is all but eliminated.

    In the breeding stations where a great many queens that populate these apiaries the same thing is happening. Systematic treatments are eliminating adaptive pressure.

    Around any such apiaries any feral bees are destroyed by the constant ingress of varroa vulnerable genes. There is, is such settings, no natural selection.

    Well away from these settings, yes, feral bees are, have, and continue to adapt.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Treatment does not eliminate mites. Those colonies which possess genetics that favor successful coexistence with the mites have a reproductive advantage over colonies with more vulnerable genetics whether or not they are treated.
    But they are unable to press that advantage into their population because those artificially maintained colonies continue to push their unadaped genes forward. As I've outline recently, bee (populations) have evolved to drop hygienic and mite-specific behaviours rapidly when not needed. The presence of too many treated bees acts on that mechanism, effectively signalling: 'problem over'.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I think it's reasonable to surmise that bees can develop resistance faster if left untreated. That's what Beeweaver did to get their mite-resistant bees. It took a few years, but obviously it was a much faster process than any progress made toward resistance in ordinary commercial stock.
    Outside the feral/natural selection setting a careful breeding procees is the only way to get any progress. If you have evidence to support your suppositions to the contrary, please let us have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    It might also be a reasonable surmise that treated bees are being selected for more than mite resistance. Beekeepers who treat might be selecting for bees that can both resist mites, and survive treatment with acaricides. This is probably an outcome that is much less than optimal, because resistance to acaricides probably has a significant cost, in metabolic terms.
    Yes - where resistance is being actively selected for the severe negative effects of treatments/broodbreaks can be overcome. That's the basis of 'soft bond'. But under no other circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I have no idea why Mike thinks brood breaks are a treatment, when it is a natural strategy used by the bees themselves for millions of years before there were any beekeepers.
    Any help from a beekeeper is a 'treatment'. Its interference in the natural process. Husbandry is about understanding that and taking care that the long term effect of the 'help' actually aids the population - rather than simply treating the individual at the expense of future generations.

    Artificial health aid in any sphere of husbandry requires, of necessity, the exclusion of the individual from the mating pool.

    That's very basic stuff Ray. You really need to catch up on the fundamentals of organic husbandry.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    That beekeepers have channeled this natural reproductive behavior into a procedure for making increase without the possible loss of swarms does not make it a treatment.
    Now you are talking about something completely different (making increase - more about this below). I suggest we argue about one issue at a time.

    Artificial brood breaks against varroa are a very modern response to a very modern problem. They have consequenses - in exactly the same way chemical treatments have.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Despite Mike's insistence that this is a treatment that precludes selection for mite resistance, I don't believe he has outlined any plausible mechanism for this.
    I have repeatedly, and have just done so again. If you can't understand it still, why not start asking close questions about what you don't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Why would a brood break in the course of making increase have any effect at all on selection for mite resistance?
    Different topic - but you are right. Those of us working at raising resistance must take care to make increase in a way that doesn't supply false data about levels of resistance. Otherwise we will fail in our efforts to raise resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    All bees do this.
    Some populations seem to be equipped to make special brood breaks in ways that appear to help them manage varroa. That can be seen as a desirable behaviour in pursuit of self sufficiency - and so those bees that do so should be allowed to raise their genetic profile in the population.

    Keeping bees alive that don't possess thoseg enes/that behaviour undermines that natural and desirable process.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    If the beekeeper helps them to do it in a way that least inconveniences the beekeeper, what, precisely, is lost?
    The genes that supply that advantageous behaviour/the behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    And in any case, how can beekeepers make increase in a more or less natural manner without a brood break?
    By doing so in ways that guard against that danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I suppose one could raise queens and put them in new splits, but then the argument could be made that you are doing the colony's work for it, to the bees' detriment, and selecting for bees that can't make their own queens.
    If you make queens from your (carefully evaluated) best colonies that's unlikely to be a problem. In fact I've never heard of that being a problem, but you never know. You asking the right sorts of questions now Ray.

    Husbandry (of genes down through generations) is an art as well as a science. You have to make careful evaluations, and make choices between competing desirables. My bottom line guide is: do nothing that will disadvantage the local ferals. That is, breed toward vigour and self-sufficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    In fact, that fairly silly notion is quite a bit more plausible than the idea that brood breaks somehow, by some mysterious process, subvert evolution.
    All interference subverts evolution. To think otherwise is, excuse me, silly.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 02-10-2014 at 02:41 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  2. #62
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,679

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Originally Posted by mike bispham
    "I want brood breaks, outside the context of a breeding strategy, to be seen for what they: a substitution for chemical treatments because they have exactly the same undesirable long term effect."

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    To satisfy that request one could wait for the swarm and hive it. The hive divides anyway and the need for increases and the colony's urge to swarm are all satisfied. The rest of your request can be satisfied by not interfering with natural selection.

    does that sum it up?
    Well, maybe. One can always force swarms by cramping - but a lot of swarms from a mite-vulnerable colony that survives because it keeps running out of room (and thus gaining natural breaks breaks) isn't really helping.

    I'd look at it from the other end. We want naturally resistant bees. The very best thing to do is nothing. However that doesn't cut the mustard - so we want to try to help the development of resistance along. To that end we want a well thought out strategy.

    What will that strategy look like? What sorts of things will make the difference between likely success and failure? And why?

    Those are the questions to ask. Once you start getting the hang of that approach, the effect of artificial brood breaks (or artificial confinement) become obvious. The ways around the difficulties likewise.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 02-10-2014 at 07:41 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Hardin Cty, KY, USA
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Thanks Mike,

    It took a bit of reading but I get your point of view, no doubt very valid points. Our passion shows how committed we all are. We all need to keep open minds, our methods vary but the end results we are all working toward are the same. I am always looking and evaluating methods and ideas to see if there is anything I can add to my beehandling tool box.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post

    If. If. In an apiary setting every effort is made to keep all alive. Selective pressure is all but eliminated.
    In the real world, those efforts do not succeed. In treated apiaries in the United States, an average of 30% of colonies are being lost. How can that not result in selective pressure?


    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    All interference subverts evolution. To think otherwise is, excuse me, silly.

    Mike (UK)
    I give up. But I would be interested in some citations regarding those bees that naturally incorporate non-reproductive brood breaks into colony life. I've heard something about them, but I've never seen anything verifiable.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
    Posts
    4,070

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Picture this. The rancher goes to his ag lender and the USDA man and says, I let 30% of my herd die to promote selective pressure, so an immunity to blackleg can develop! We are dealing with children. Scientists are subsidized to play these games and many still fail to produce valuable results. Do not look down your nose at those who need to make a living.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,679

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    In the real world, those efforts do not succeed. In treated apiaries in the United States, an average of 30% of colonies are being lost. How can that not result in selective pressure?
    In all those that should be lost, but aren't. They perpetuate the vulnerability.

    If it were otherwise there wouldn't be a problem by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I give up. But I would be interested in some citations regarding those bees that naturally incorporate non-reproductive brood breaks into colony life. I've heard something about them, but I've never seen anything verifiable.
    I can't help. Some of mine seem to shut down hard in July, and I think Pete here in the uk has said the same thing. Does Dr Delaney talk about it here?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDQNoQfW-9w

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,212

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    While I see the point of the above conversation, I do not worry with any of the above when handling my bees. If I want to split them in the spring, I do so. If I catch a swarm, lucky me, that one did not get to the woods. I simply ignore varroa. If my bees die of varroa, so be it. I have other bees that are alive and thriving. This allows me to say that this entire thread and this entire argument from my perspective is specious. Give it a few more years and it will be the same for others too.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    While I see the point of the above conversation, I do not worry with any of the above when handling my bees. If I want to split them in the spring, I do so. If I catch a swarm, lucky me, that one did not get to the woods. I simply ignore varroa. If my bees die of varroa, so be it. I have other bees that are alive and thriving. This allows me to say that this entire thread and this entire argument from my perspective is specious. Give it a few more years and it will be the same for others too.
    Are you sure? According to Mike, bees can never evolve any resistance as long as they are treated, and the vast majority of bees here are treated.

    If he's right, it doesn't look good.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,212

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    I am at 8 years and counting with no treatments. I ignore varroa and hive beetles and tracheal mites. I have ignored them for 8 years. Some years my bees swarmed. Some years there was zero swarming. Some years I split them. I manage them just the way I would have 30 years ago before the bad guys showed up. I lost several colonies in the last 8 years, one yard got down to a single colony. I don't care what they are doing. I don't care how it works. They make a crop of honey and they survive on their own.

    From my perspective, Mike is wrong to worry about a brood break from a spring split. He is correct to worry about splits made in summer or fall which have the specific intent of reducing mite pressure. Ray is wrong to keep suggesting that some form of artificial reduction of mite load will still help. It did not help me from 1993 until 2005. What finally helped was requeening every single colony I had with mite tolerant queens. It still took 4 years for all the problems to shake out. The last 4 years have been the most enjoyable for me as a beekeeper since 1987.

    Quit arguing and either treat your bees and continue to yammer about mites or do what Mike is trying to do and quit treating and let the bees do what they are supposed to do!

    In the end, this is all that counts.

    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  10. #70
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Amador County, California, USA
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Quit arguing and either treat your bees and continue to yammer about mites or do what Mike is trying to do and quit treating and let the bees do what they are supposed to do!
    Makes sense.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I
    From my perspective, Mike is wrong to worry about a brood break from a spring split. He is correct to worry about splits made in summer or fall which have the specific intent of reducing mite pressure. Ray is wrong to keep suggesting that some form of artificial reduction of mite load will still help. It did not help me from 1993 until 2005. What finally helped was requeening every single colony I had with mite tolerant queens. It still took 4 years for all the problems to shake out. The last 4 years have been the most enjoyable for me as a beekeeper since 1987.

    Quit arguing and either treat your bees and continue to yammer about mites or do what Mike is trying to do and quit treating and let the bees do what they are supposed to do!

    In the end, this is all that counts.
    Good grief. I'm not treating my bees, and I'm not saying that treating is a good thing. All I'm trying to get across is that treatment does not magically stop evolution in its tracks, and that it's possible bees have already evolved some degree of varroa resistance despite the fact that most bees are treated.

    That's all.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  12. #72
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,679

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Good grief. I'm not treating my bees, and I'm not saying that treating is a good thing. All I'm trying to get across is that treatment does not magically stop evolution in its tracks, ...
    Ray,

    There's nothing magic about it. The equation is: the more treatments, the more treatment-dependent bees. There are plenty of circumstances today where not only is there no adaptation to varroa occurring, but the presence of treated bees is eliminating resistant strains on an ongoing basis. That's a science-based view.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    ... and that it's possible bees have already evolved some degree of varroa resistance despite the fact that most bees are treated.
    We've always agreed that. Feral survivors have adapted, in places very successfully. That's been understood for years. It seems to me that you've been defending the view that they've also been adapting within treatment-intensive regimes. I've been trying to show you that can't happen.

    Antibiotic-resistant bacteria don't get less resistant when you throw more antibiotics at them. They get more antibiotic-resistant.

    Varroa vulnerable bees don't get less varroa vulnerable when you throw miticides at them. They get more treatment dependent.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    That's all.
    You've also been defending the view that deliberate brood breaking doesn't interfere with the development of resistance. I've been putting forward the view that it does, and for that reason ought to be regarded as a form of 'treatment'

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  13. #73

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    That's a science-based view.
    Any bee-specific proof for this statement?

  14. #74
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,679

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    While I see the point of the above conversation [...] This allows me to say that this entire thread and this entire argument from my perspective is specious. Give it a few more years and it will be the same for others too.
    Are you sure you mean 'specious'?

    "superficially plausible, but actually wrong"

    Who is wrong, and why?

    From my point of view...the main point of all this discussion is to learn more about what the mechanisms of resistance are, and to defend and promote scientific understanding, on the basis that that's much better for bees than wishful thinking or myth based approaches. There is a distinct science underlying organic husbandry, and it can supply us with truthful, and thus useful, insight and guidance.

    That understanding tells us that your optimism about the future will only come through if and where beekeepers can be persuaded to stop treating. And brood breaking.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #75
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,679

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Any bee-specific proof for this statement?
    What would constitute 'proof' for you Berhard? The 'laws' of natural selection are universal. What more do you want? What I mean is, what specifically would satisfy you?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  16. #76

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    The 'laws' of natural selection are universal.
    I don't think that is in any way scientific to say so. I would like to see some scientific work on the "universal laws" in action in beehives that show that treatments interfere with evolution/natural selection. If there aren't any studies, your statement is not a scientific fact but your own interpretation/derivation. From universal laws to a specific situation. Unless there is no data backing this statement, this is not more than a hypothesis and it should be marked as one.

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
    Posts
    1,290

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Does anyone know at what level of varroa infestation the resistance gene is triggered? Does it take 500 varroa in the colony or 5000? If it is a number below the economic threshold, reducing the varroa to that number by treatments would allow the colony to survive and still develop resistance.
    37 years - 25 colonies - IPM disciple - naturally skeptic

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Antibiotic-resistant bacteria don't get less resistant when you throw more antibiotics at them. They get more antibiotic-resistant.

    Varroa vulnerable bees don't get less varroa vulnerable when you throw miticides at them. They get more treatment dependent.
    Are you telling us that you don't understand any of the profound differences between these two situations?
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,212

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    that it's possible bees have already evolved some degree of varroa resistance despite the fact that most bees are treated.
    My front line experience with varroa is that there is a "threshold of survival" where enough bees have enough resistance traits so that the colony can survive and thrive. Until the "degree of varroa resistance" exceeds the "threshold of survival" the bees will DIE if untreated. So instead of thinking that resistance slowly accumulates, instead think that treated bees and their genetics water down the resistance genes preventing bees from reaching that threshold over any reasonable time frame. I also saw an effect where having just 2 or 3 colonies of mite susceptible bees in an apiary was enough to overwhelm mite tolerant bees. Said another way, until I got 100% mite tolerant bees in all of my colonies, I was seeing losses from mites overwhelming a susceptible colony, then moving into a resistant colony in such numbers that they overwhelmed it too.

    specious - apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments. I would add the concept of irrelevant, not applicable, unimportant, etc.

    Does anyone know at what level of varroa infestation the resistance gene is triggered?
    Varroa tolerance is not based on a single gene. It appears to be linked to at least 3 genes for VSH and at least 2 genes for allogrooming and probably still other genes not defined or understood. When bees have the tolerance genes, they react to the presence of any mites at all. I have not attempted to perform a detailed analysis of the genetics involved because it is nice to know but not needed. Where any trait can be 100% reliably selected based on a simple criterion, explaining how it works is irrelevant, simply apply the selection pressure and the results will follow.

    I do not advise anyone to stop treating typical commercial honeybees. They are uniformly susceptible. If your bees have known mite tolerant traits, selection can enhance those traits to the point of economic viability. Mite mauling is one example where this has been effective. By monitoring large numbers of colonies for mauled mites, a few will be found that show enhanced mauling behavior. Concentrate these colonies into an area and raise queens from them and let them mate with drones from colonies that also express the trait.

    So Mike Bispham, if you want to do this scientifically, I would suggest checking your bees to see which colonies exhibit high levels of mite mauling behavior. Then you can determine how to breed from the best.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  20. #80

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    In fact treating produces even stronger and fitter bees: bees have to survive varroa and treatments.

Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads