Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 209
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,774

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Let's try another way of looking at splits. Typical beekeeping tries to avoid the natural inclination to swarm. Splits take the place of this so the bees end up in your hives instead of the trees. So if you were not keeping them from swarming they would have done it themselves. You're not really propping them up so much as redirecting things so they end up in your hives...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
    Posts
    4,288

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Mr. Disselkoehns methods are not removing selective pressure on the mites. No miticide is used. The mites are just prevented from having a long running buildup that often overwhelms a colony. Mites that are still virulent under this discipline would kill the host colony and end this brand of mites story too. His method also maximizes the genetic diversity of your apiary as you remove only bloodlines that lack resistance to disease, defensive colonies and unproductive colonies. All your eggs are not in what you see as your best colonies genetic basket. New queens are produced from all successful colonies and that diversity is what may be needed. Until a better plan comes along, I will run with this one. I wish Mr. Disselkoehn would complete the book he is working on!! Nudge Nudge.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,799

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    I can't comment here I do not understand this comment. I understand the "IF" I'll put my money on Nature and take a chance but I am not wasting money on something Mother Nature will give me anyway (Darwin)
    If you have a lot of treating apiaries near you the local bees will be treatment-dependent. If you don't treat (or brood-break) them - it amounts to the same thing - the great majority will perish.

    So lots depends on that 'IFF' (the 2 'F's signals 'If and only if'). If you want to know how to 'lay your money' knowing the state of the local bees vis-a-vis self sufficieny/resistance is essential.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    In the sustainable circles I would say requeening is going backwards. How do you know his splits will be "big treatment dependent hives producing drones" You don"t. There is no magic crystal ball that will predict the out come.
    I don't know what 'sustainable' means to you, but to me it means reliably keeping bees without undermining the resistance of any local ferals. You want a feral population, so you must do what you can to maintain one. Chiefly that means don't keep bees that are treatment-dependent - because your treatment-dependent drones will mate with the ferals thus rendering them treatment-dependent.

    You don't know the splits will be treatment-dependent - but you don't know that they won't be either. Given that they probably come from largely treatment-dependent parentage, they almost certainly are. Its worth making an effort to find out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    Discovery is one of the FUN things here!
    Discovering the 10 colonies you had a few months ago have gone to the great hive in the sky isn't my idea of fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    If you buy queens to requeen you are not creating your own genetically strong stock you are propagating someone else's from somewhere else anyway.
    If you have no self-sustaining ferals/have a high number of treating hives around you, you have little choice.

    The strategy is:

    A) get some sound (resistant) genetics in:

    B) take very good care of those genes (not the bees, the genes.

    You do that by propagating selectively - from your best

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    I agree with a good strong home apiary, but that pretty much happens on its own with hobby beeks anyway.
    Haha! Stick around and listen to the tales of woe! Root out the 'treatment frees' who actually use brood breaks, or get new nucs every year.

    'Sustainable beekeeping' is about getting bees that manage mites on their own.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 02-06-2014 at 10:21 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,275

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Vance, very well put. I believe this, in combination with MP's nuc method is the most pragmatic approach if a person wants to be a hobbyist/sideliner and not buy bees every year.
    I turned 50 last year - I do not have the resources, time, or ability to develop a completely mite resistant bee. Accepting that mites are here to stay, and living in the north where a winter brood break is an annual event, this seems to be the method which suits my style of beekeeping best.
    I also agree with MB's point bees in the boxes are easier to deal with than bees in the trees.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,799

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    Mr. Disselkoehns methods are not removing selective pressure on the mites. No miticide is used. The mites are just prevented from having a long running buildup that often overwhelms a colony.
    Vance,

    That is precisely removing the selective pressure on the population. (You have to be looking always at the _breeding population_, not the individual colonies. 'Live and let die' allows that to play out - but it isn't necessary. There are other ways - and locating the best and propagating from them (alone) is the time-honoured method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    Mites that are still virulent under this discipline would kill the host colony and end this brand of mites story too.
    The mites are clearly virulent enough to be uncontrollable by the bees - that's why you're using brood breaks. That isn't what you want. You want a bee-mite combination in which the bees manage the mites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    His method also maximizes the genetic diversity of your apiary as you remove only bloodlines that lack resistance to disease, defensive colonies and unproductive colonies.
    That sounds useful, but unless you are selecting for resistance, you won't get any. Without resistance you can't have treatment free bees. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    All your eggs are not in what you see as your best colonies genetic basket. New queens are produced from all successful colonies and that diversity is what may be needed.
    You're not going to disturb diversity much unless you use AI intensively. You can take diversity for granted - particularly if you are bringing in feral genes.

    What you must have is a systematic selective propagation approach that brings resistance to the fore. That's what Nature has in Natural Selection for the Fittest Strains - and you must copy and mirror her. There is no alternative except hospital bees.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Hardin Cty, KY, USA
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Looks like we agree on the end result just not how to get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    Mike B., tell me in a nutshell what we are to do then? What is the solution to the bees building natural resistance to varroa?
    There is only one way to help bees build resistance to mites. First realize mites are here to stay period. Second realize there is nothing you or anybody else is going to do to "make" bees more resistant to mites. Weather or not you like it Natural Selection will march forward regardless what you do. By "You" I mean beekeepers in general. You will probably develop some pesticide which will only make resistant mites!!!!! and slow the natural selection process or result in another species disappearing from the face of the earth.

    Now if you really want to help.....realize you will have to roll with Mother Nature. Make your hives install your bees get them started and observe. Some will experience high losses, expect this its part of the journey. Your hives that survive on their own will be the basis for your apiary. How you go about making increases is up to you. So weather its mites or robbing or a weak queen let natural selection run its course. You will be surprised at what you learn. The key to a good foundation for any problem solving is a strong colony.

    Let me clarify "getting them started" Because I know I'm going to draw fire on that one.

    What if: you spend 500.00 dollars on packages, get installed and low and behold ALL your colonies are infested with mites above the threshold a newly established colony can handle. YES you have to take action and save the colonies. BUT once they are established and have strong numbers its time to see how they do on their own.

    Remember its all about the load the mites put on the colony.

    I to turned 50 and agree completely Adrain.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,799

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Quiney WI View Post
    I do not have the resources, time, or ability to develop a completely mite resistant bee. Accepting that mites are here to stay, and living in the north where a winter brood break is an annual event, this seems to be the method which suits my style of beekeeping best.
    With the greatest respect, imo artificial brood breaks do not amount to tf beekeeping, and shouldn't be advocated here in the tf section. Since they reserse the development of natural resistance they're just treatments by another name.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,799

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    There is only one way to help bees build resistance to mites. First realize mites are here to stay period. Second realize there is nothing you or anybody else is going to do to "make" bees more resistant to mites.
    Absolutely wrong. Every time you treat you reverse progress toward resistance. Every time you propagate from more resistant hives, and encourge more resistant hives to build large drone populations, you promote resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    Weather or not you like it Natural Selection will march forward regardless what you do. By "You" I mean beekeepers in general.
    Natural selection (for resistance) cannot 'march forward' wherever treatments are occurring. That's simple fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    Now if you really want to help.....realize you will have to roll with Mother Nature. Make your hives install your bees get them started and observe. Some will experience high losses, expect this its part of the journey. Your hives that survive on their own will be the basis for your apiary. How you go about making increases is up to you. So weather its mites or robbing or a weak queen let natural selection run its course. You will be surprised at what you learn. The key to a good foundation for any problem solving is a strong colony.
    I agree. But you can adopt further strategies that impove your chances without incurring any costs. Making lots of colonies to protect against future losses, and to build a large apiary that can defend its (genetic) airspace is one of those - an important one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Thacker View Post
    What if: you spend 500.00 dollars on packages, get installed and low and behold ALL your colonies are infested with mites above the threshold a newly established colony can handle. YES you have to take action and save the colonies. BUT once they are established and have strong numbers its time to see how they do on their own.
    Probably they'll all die. But if you make lots on new colonies before they do, and mate them in places likely to have 'survivor' ferals, and bring in cut-out established colonies, and requeen the obvious poor mite mangers with bred resistant stock... you're loading the dice in your favour with each move.

    Unless you are lucky enough to have a strong feral population (in which case there's no need to buy any bees) just stopping treating is a mugs game. You need a strategy.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Hardin Cty, KY, USA
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    We have treatment free beeks right here in KY keeping bees with GM corn all over the place non the less, you might as well call this state Monsantoville! Our beeks are foundationless and reporting 100% survival rate through the last couple of winters. They are also reporting birds and bees are staying away from the corn. So I am praying for the same scenario between bees and mites I am banking on Mother Nature. But I am watching. I said the bees would work it out over ten years ago I am finally uncrossing my fingers, the big picture seems to be pointing in that direction. Purely observation. If you want to confirm (which boards are notorious for asking for) I can put you in touch with some of them I see them at the weekly farmers market. This is where I get my bees because they are local mutts!

    I will never live the tale of woe barring natural disaster, I been at this too long.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,275

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Mike, with equal respect, within this specific section of the forum brood breaks are a manipulation, and manipulations are not classified as a treatment; Solomon put some thought into this and has treatments defined as substances brought into the hive.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,774

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    >Since they reserse the development of natural resistance they're just treatments by another name.

    Or they are just swarms by another name...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #32
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,799

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Quiney WI View Post
    Mike, with equal respect, within this specific section of the forum brood breaks are a manipulation, and manipulations are not classified as a treatment; Solomon put some thought into this and has treatments defined as substances brought into the hive.
    Yes I know. My argument is that that arrangement doesn't bring in the fact that brood breaks reverse the development of natural resistance. Since the development of natural resitance is the only long term sustainable solution, that arrangement would benefit from re-arrangement.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  13. #33
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,799

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Since they reserse the development of natural resistance they're just treatments by another name.

    Or they are just swarms by another name...
    No. Swarms are natural events.

    Keeping [...]-dependent bees by means of brood breaks undermines any development toward internal mite-management and kills ferals. Swarming doesn't do that.

    Can't be good Michael, can it?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,722

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    With the greatest respect, imo artificial brood breaks do not amount to tf beekeeping, and shouldn't be advocated here in the tf section.
    Huh.

    The rules of this Treatment Free forum seem clear enough to me.
    Treatments do not include items considered to be manipulations or equipment including but not limited to the following:
    Frequent queen replacement
    Systematic splitting
    Frequent replacement of comb/foundation
    Small cell foundation
    Drone comb removal
    Screened Bottom Boards
    Small Hive Beetle Traps
    Honey Harvest
    Pollen Harvest
    Frame Manipulation
    Hive Body Reversal
    The Use of a Smoker
    Sticky Boards
    Any Method of Breeding

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ue-Forum-Rules

    Brood breaks are indeed a suitable topic for this TF forum.




    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 02-05-2014 at 02:33 PM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,233

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    If it is what bees do naturally or closely emulates what bees do naturally, then I would not call it a treatment. On the other hand, I don't treat my bees in any way, no chemicals, no special manipulation, no drone brood removal and they are thriving. The problem is that me posting this info will reach many newbees and even some experienced beekeepers who won't understand the work I had to put in to get to this stage. It did NOT happen overnight and it was not a pleasant experience losing as many colonies as I lost over the years.

    It may be thrilling to think of beekeepers abandoning chemical mite treatments, but the reality is that very very few colonies are naturally mite resistant.
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,774

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    >No. Swarms are natural events.

    Which would occur if you don't do splits. The ideal time for the split is the same time they would most likely swarm...

    >Keeping [...]-dependent bees by means of brood breaks undermines any development toward internal mite-management and kills ferals.

    How does it do either. They are not dependent on me, they would swarm otherwise. How does it kill ferals? Prevents them, perhaps, but if I was there to catch the swarm it would be the same outcome.

    > Swarming doesn't do that.

    Doesn't do what? It makes a break in the brood cycle at the same time I would have done a split (or a week after if I'm lucky and beat them) and I'm only splitting the ones I expect to swarm so it's the same colonies in the same state.

    If I had all my time to devote to beekeeping, I probably would set up some good baited staging areas and more baited hives and every day I'd check for swarms at 10:00 am and 2:00 pm... but since I can't, I'll do splits. A colony in a box is worth far more than two in the bush.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post


    Natural selection (for resistance) cannot 'march forward' wherever treatments are occurring. That's simple fact.
    The above would only be true were treatments 100% successful in preserving colonies. Obviously they are not. If you have a thousand colonies and half die despite treatment, then the survivors, it would seem, are more resistant. If you breed from those survivors, whatever genetics helped them to survive when the other colonies died will be preserved.

    And so on.

    It would probably be fair to say that resistance would develop more rapidly without treatment.

    In any case, the more I learn about the subject, the less certain I feel that bee genetics are the only important aspects of successful treatment free beekeeping.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  18. #38
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,799

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    The above would only be true were treatments 100% successful in preserving colonies. Obviously they are not. If you have a thousand colonies and half die despite treatment, then the survivors, it would seem, are more resistant. If you breed from those survivors, whatever genetics helped them to survive when the other colonies died will be preserved.

    And so on.
    Ray,

    This would be so were it not the case that mite-managemnt behaviours represent an expense to the colony, and so natural selection has arranged things such when not needed they disappear quickly. This makes them very sensitive to actions that present an environemt in which they are, apparently, not needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    It would probably be fair to say that resistance would develop more rapidly without treatment.
    Organisms evolve to suit their environments. If the environment is one in which mite-managment behaviours are not needed (because beekeepers are doing the managing), they won't come forward in the first place. If they are there they will retreat.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    In any case, the more I learn about the subject, the less certain I feel that bee genetics are the only important aspects of successful treatment free beekeeping.
    Genetics are the foundation of all forms of husbandry - plant, animal, you name it. You get the individual the parents supply. Period. Qualities (like behaviours) are inherited. Or not. Nature's primary health seeking mechanism uses that principle.

    Its true that other things are required. But selective propogation is necessary to health - where 'necessary' means strictly - you can't do without it. If you try then whatevery else you are doing, husbandry it ain't. Nor is it possible that'll you'll succeed in having tf bees..

    You can outsource the job to breeders, or to feral populations. But unless you breed the predators will gain the upper hand - because they're selecting in favour of any advantage.

    You don't have to take my word for any of this. For example:

    "3.4 Control of Varroa
    A major obstacle to the development of mite tolerance in the European honey bee is intensive beekeeping practices including mite control. Since the mite has been introduced to the western world, beekeepers use methods to remove the mite from colonies, therefore eliminating the selective pressure of mite infestation that would be required for adaptations towards parasite tolerance or resistance in the bees, or towards lower virulence in the mites (Fries & Camazine, 2001). "

    Host-Parasite Adaptations and Interactions Between Honey Bees, Varroa Mites and Viruses, Barbara Locke

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 02-05-2014 at 03:07 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  19. #39
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,799

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >No. Swarms are natural events.

    Which would occur if you don't do splits. The ideal time for the split is the same time they would most likely swarm...
    Michael,

    What I'm talking about is using splits as a method of mite control (through inducing brood breaks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Keeping [...]-dependent bees by means of brood breaks undermines any development toward internal mite-management and kills ferals.

    How does it do either. They are not dependent on me, they would swarm otherwise. How does it kill ferals?
    If... they would swarm otherwise, then perhaps it makes no difference. But I'm talking about maintaining bees that would perish (sometimes in part because they hadn't swarmed) if they weren't split.

    If bees are using brood breaks naturally, as part of their own mite-management strategy, that's fine. But the minute you do it for them, you start keeping alive bees that would otherwise die. They would die because they are not equipped for the environment they are in.

    They will then tend to carry that lack of approriate behaviour into any surrounding bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    > Swarming doesn't do that.

    Doesn't do what? It makes a break in the brood cycle at the same time I would have done a split (or a week after if I'm lucky and beat them) and I'm only splitting the ones I expect to swarm so it's the same colonies in the same state.
    Following that regime sounds much less harmful than simply systematically maintaining bees by routinely splitting, thus forcing a brood break.

    It wasn't long ago you said 'if all beekeepers stopped treating the problem would end'. That's because artifially preserving unadapted strains simply perpetuates the problem.

    How can you not see that substituting systematic brood breaks simple preserves exactly the same bees?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canada BC Delta
    Posts
    451

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    How can you not see that substituting systematic brood breaks simple preserves exactly the same bees?
    Your assumption is that the bees a not adapting and for what ever reason you are not willing to hear what so many have tried to get across. Why wouldn't the bees adapt generationally. Remember it is not the strongest that survives but rather the one most able to adapt. You need to let this one go.

Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads