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  1. #201
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,020

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I have, I agree, been irritated by the ill mannered and obtuse nature of some posters, and have responded in kind. (Your unnecessary use of my surname is an example)
    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    As you well know Chestnut I'm not making any such assumption.
    I'm following tha path of collecting individuals that already have a degree of resistance, then undertaking a structured long term program designed to protect and further that resistance.
    Mike you speak with the arrogance, or certainty, of somebody who has already achieved his goals. At this time, best I can tell, your rather simplistic attempt has not achieved anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    [ This is why Oldtimer can talk about bees relatively unchanged in 40 years.] A perfectly good alternative account is that he's not very good at it. Alternative, he is quite good at it, and if he hadn't been breeding his yields would have deteriorated dramatically.
    Another alternative is that you do not have the experience to know. You missed my meaning. I was talking about bee breeding by humans. Not just bee breeding by myself.

    Fusion Power, to whom you have been so obnoxious, in fact has what I consider a correct take on this. My comment was in relation to the effect of breeding by humans over the last 40 years. As Fusion Power correctly pointed out, pressure from varroa is a lot more all encompassing than what humans can achieve.
    Personally though I would take this one further. I still do not think the huiman attempts at breeding mite resistance have achieved much. The best run breeding programs include such as the US VSH program. It is possible that feral (not influenced by man) bees, have achieved more than human run programs. Much of this “breeding” has not been true breeding. It is that of the wide array of lineages that exist in the US, the presence of mites has reduced some and brought others to the fore. That’s all.

    The member you refer to as “Chestnut” said that bees have established a breeding mechanisim to ensure stability across millions of years. He speaks the truth, bees, more than nearly any other animal, have. Take mites away and see what happens within a few years. It’s because they have been around a long time. We do not know if Mellifera have already dealt with mite plagues in the past. But mites have not been nor will be the only threat they face and they have within themselves the technology as a species to deal with them. Which is why for me anyway, I take a more holistic view than an obsession with mites and mites alone.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Bellflower, Montgomery,Mo,USA
    Posts
    141

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    At this point it appears there is NO natural resistance to varroa. Unless you consider Minnesota Hygenics or VSH.

    As far as thinking of a 2 year old hive a survivor hive I think you are fooling yourself. That hive is still strong from it's recent split. I've always heard that if you do nothing to a hive they will be dead in 3 years. A 4 year old hive WOULD be a survivor.

    Mels methods rely on making new, strong hives every season. That's treatment free but high maintenance. That may work for us hobbyists, but not for commercial guys.

    It appears we are years or decades away from any relief.

  3. #203
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,679

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by jbraun View Post
    At this point it appears there is NO natural resistance to varroa.
    That opinion could only be held by somebody who hasn't followed the literature, spoken with other beekeepers, or observed the recovery of local wild populations at first hand away from treating apiaries.

    Natural resistance is well understood and well documented.

    The disruption of natural adaptation to varroa due to systematic treatments is also well understood.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  4. #204
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Hardin Cty, KY, USA
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    That opinion could only be held by somebody who hasn't followed the literature, spoken with other beekeepers, or observed the recovery of local wild populations at first hand away from treating apiaries.

    Natural resistance is well understood and well documented.

    The disruption of natural adaptation to varroa due to systematic treatments is also well understood.

    Mike (UK)
    That pretty much sums it up!!!!!!

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by jbraun View Post
    At this point it appears there is NO natural resistance to varroa. Unless you consider Minnesota Hygenics or VSH.
    What about Beeweaver?
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  6. #206
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,679

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Quote Originally Posted by jbraun View Post
    At this point it appears there is NO natural resistance to varroa. Unless you consider Minnesota Hygenics or VSH.
    This doesn't actually make sense either. Its wrong in more ways than one.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,341

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    >At this point it appears there is NO natural resistance to varroa.

    There are not only millions of feral colonies surviving, there are many beekeepers with hives surviving with no Varroa treatments for a decade or more. It's a mystery to me that people can keep saying this. I was at the Ohio state meeting and the panel on the stage was answering questions and one person on the panel said something in response to the idea of not treating and stated that bees might just go extinct and that they could not survive without treatments. Dan O'Hanlon was on my left and he said something to the effect of "my bees haven't been treated in a decade and they are still alive. Michael here hasn't treated his in that long and they are still alive..." I honestly don't understand how anyone can claim there are not bees surviving without treatments. Everyone I know who does cutouts and swarms on a large scale have no shortage of bees to collect from houses and trees where they often have been living for decades. Yes, I know the old "how do you know they aren't recent swarms from a beekeeper" argument. Recent swarms from a beekeeper have bees 150% bigger in volume than feral bees. They are obvious. If you need someone with more "credibility", Dr. Thomas Seeley has been studying the feral bees in Arnot forest since the 70s and they are still alive and still not being treated.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    Michael mentioned Tom Seeley and the Arnot forest. I was at a conference one time and Tom spoke about the bee population in Arnot forest and how it has been at a stable level since he began studying it. After the talk, I asked him if the colonies were "stable". He response was interesting to me. He said no, colonies come and go. Nest sites change somewhat as a colony dies or a new one is made available. I think once you get a population to a critical mass it becomes less about the individual colony, but more about the population as a whole.
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,341

    Default Re: Can splits control mites?

    > He said no, colonies come and go.

    In nature the population has to hit an equilibrium of what the forage and habitat will sustain. For this to happen, they swarm, some die, but all in all the population stays the same. That is true in nature for all creatures in the long run.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

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