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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,630

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    Where are you getting Cordovan queens from grumpy? Cordovan is not a strain, is it? Aren't there Cordovan Carniolans and Cordovan Italians.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,839

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    WLC, you of all beekeepers should be agreeing with chemical exposure being a huge contributor to poor queen longevity

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Posts
    106

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    He's got something to gripe about.

    The average queen lasts only six months, and there are only 500-700 breeder queens in the U.S. .

    When you consider the large number of queens required each year for almond pollination alone, it becomes an issue.

    Of course, beekeepers don't have a magic wand and can't simply make new/better breeder queens appear out of thin air.

    My question would be, 'Where are you going to get new breeder queens to replace/augment the current ones?'
    You're not on a large scale...Most people are out for the gold in california, or somewhere getting a pollination check. They can get away with warm weather to requeen. The trouble is when california gets bad weather spells...What does that mean for already expendable queens? All I see is package bee & nuc & queen prices going up year after year. The southern u.s., in florida & lousiana had alot of rain early on(last year).

    I'd shake down one of the big queen breeders and make them breed stock out of the isolated yards that they keep tucked away from everybody else. The smart guys get away from the mainland and hit the islands...or just get mean bees that reproduce on their own.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    "You're not on a large scale..."

    Any large scale livestock breeding operation runs into the same problem: bottlenecking.

    I've seen the same problem with other invertebrate stocks as well.

    It's a common problem.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Posts
    106

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    Mean nasty bees that swarm alot are intentionally pinched & requeened.

  6. #46
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,839

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    Are mean swarmy queens the ones that you would propagate, grumpy?

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Lakeland, FL, USA
    Posts
    60

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3


  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,832

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpybeeman View Post
    Having to replace half the queens every year isn't good... I see it in the u.s with people I know... If you want to keep them alive all winter, you have to. You don't see a problem with having to replace half every year?
    Annual requeening has been preached for 100 years, nothing has changed. There are many benefits to having a new queen in your hives every year. If you think today's commercial queens don't have long term productivity, then that's even more of a reason to requeen annually. I don't know what you are complaining about, sell three pounds of honey retail and you've got the money for a new queen. I think that's a very small price to pay to get a fresh queen in your hive that will produce a strong foraging force to gather a honey crop for you.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    This is an interesting dilemma, propensity/intensity vs. longevity. It is kind of like the tortoise and the hare. The poultry industry encountered this dilemma probably 60 or so years ago. When selection efforts for high rate of laying were utilized efficiently, the number of eggs laid per year increased rapidly, to the point that the hen's body could not accommodate the productivity.

    I think we see something similar in honey bees. Not all strains are the same. Cordovan is not a breed or a strain, but a color mutation. It just so happens that they have a reputation for being broody because of the queen producers that made them popular. Longevity is very important in my selection program but it has to come with productivity. I work with Carniolans and Italians. All queens are raised, inseminated and managed under the same conditions, but there is a noticeable difference in longevity between the strains. The inseminated Italians may last into their second season and occasionally their third season. The inseminated Carniolans will last into the second, third, sometimes fourth and on very rare occasions, their 5th season. Keep in mind these are in full size production hives as productivity comes first in the commercial world.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Ohio
    Posts
    860

    Wink Re: Time to get nervous #3

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpybeeman View Post
    Breeding your own isn't difficult...BUT from what stock do you breed when 99% of the bees out there are burnouts? Some bees last a few yrs through agricultural areas or not. Grumpybeeman needs grumpy bees!
    I have the bee for you. There is this breeder in texas and they makes some dang hot bees. Some years you just wish they would burnout.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bloomington In
    Posts
    790

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    Quote Originally Posted by The Honey Householder View Post
    I have the bee for you. There is this breeder in texas and they makes some dang hot bees. Some years you just wish they would burnout.
    I worked Texas bee's last fall them girls were hot but they did produce more honey.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,839

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    >>This is an interesting dilemma, propensity/intensity vs. longevity. <<

    What exactly is the brood laying difference between an intensive laying queen and a queen that will give longevity?
    What brood rearing growth targets are you measuring to determine the difference between the two?

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    There are several parameters... I look at it as a queen only has so many eggs in her lifetime. Italians tend to lay more eggs per year than a Carniolan. Although Carniolans may have greater egg laying rates at given times of the year, say early spring, but far lower egg laying rates during the summer and winter. I am not saying one is better than the other as they both have their applications in the bee industry, just a different way of going about the business of developing and managing a population.
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  14. #54
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    So your saying Cali queen ops are raising queens with less eggs?

  15. #55
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    Can someone tell me how many eggs are available in a queen at the beginning of her lifetime ?

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    Probably zero, until her ovaries are fully developed.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  17. #57
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    When I said beginning of her lifetime, I meant when she was introduced into the hive....

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    It's measured by the number and development of her ovarioles.

  19. #59
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    I'm guessing there will be more on hand than a queen would be able to use in a year, even if she happened to have an accelerated laying rate...

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Time to get nervous #3

    A well mated queen, with many well developed ovarioles, is equipped to lay an abundance of fertilized eggs well beyond its maximum lifespan.

    Queen 'burnout' is likely caused by more than one issue.

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