Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 26 of 26
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Default Re: What happens if small cell foundation gets mixed with regular cell.

    I have a mixture of natural comb and small cell. About half and half. I see the same with both.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Hardin Cty, KY, USA
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: What happens if small cell foundation gets mixed with regular cell.

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    I doubt it. I have hives on 4.9mm cells. But the workers are not any smaller than workers from other hives. I have seen smaller bees in Spring and late summer, but never seen a difference between workers from a large cell hive and a small cell hive.

    Has anyone done any measurements or is this proven somehow? I reckon cell size doesn't matter - workers do have the same size if properly nourished. (Me thinks it nourishment which decreases/increases size, and this is how size is seasonal...)

    You see smaller bees in varroa damaged hives, though. Again, size shrinks because of failed nourishment because the mites suck out the larvae.

    Weight and size of the bees were the same in my apiaries, both smaller and normal sized cells. Other small cell beekeepers in Germany do state the same.
    Gre Gott, Bernhard wie geht es Ihnen?

    Its been a long time since we spoke. private message me for clarification. I noticed the seasonal changes in my TBH hives in Bavaria. No foundation whatsoever I DID measure it using the standards outlined by Mike here. I had cell sizes in the worker brood anywhere from 4.2 up to 5.1 and in the drone brood 6.0 to 6.3. The ONLY facts I did prove to myself was my hives with NO foundation did better and overwintered better than any beek around me using foundation ( every other household in Bavaria has hives so there are tons to compare to) and they were using OA. The other fact was that I could not read the collective minds of the bees in my hives so I let them build their own environment and adjusted my methods rather than try to force them to adjust to mine Remember this (foundation) was the biggest mistake Langstroth made and it is still continues in the name of profit today. Cell size MATTERS to the bees for reasons that today still escape us, but then what we know about Mother Nature is only enough to scratch the surface.

    Not to proud to learn from the bees!!!!!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,228

    Default Re: What happens if small cell foundation gets mixed with regular cell.

    Mark would say it's antidotal evidence but I would argue 99.9% of all knowledge is.
    I think you mean "anecdotal", this post is anecdotal meaning it is what I observed but have not proven.

    My bees are smaller today than they were 8 years ago. I attribute this to using small cell which seems to favor bees that develop in fewer days and are adapted to growing in the smaller cells. I would estimate the size difference is about 10%.

    When I did the bee tree cutout a couple of weeks ago, I measured the comb at 4.95 to 5.1. These bees were from a swarm out of my colonies a few years ago. The queen was noticeably smaller with more tapered abdomen than queens I purchased 30 years ago.
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Hardin Cty, KY, USA
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: What happens if small cell foundation gets mixed with regular cell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    My bees are smaller today than they were 8 years ago. I attribute this to using small cell which seems to favor bees that develop in fewer days and are adapted to growing in the smaller cells. I would estimate the size difference is about 10%.

    When I did the bee tree cutout a couple of weeks ago, I measured the comb at 4.95 to 5.1. These bees were from a swarm out of my colonies a few years ago. The queen was noticeably smaller with more tapered abdomen than queens I purchased 30 years ago.
    Langstroth theorized Larger cells meant bigger bees which could make more honey and for the longest time the introduction of larger cell foundation did not stress the colony to a point it caused damage. Time marched on and the environmental (mites to name just one) and man made (pesticides, GMO's) stresses piled up. The balance in Nature of what a colony could tolerate eventually shifted (as happened to most species that disappeared off the face of the earth) and colonies began to collapse under the pressure. Now history will repeat itself the same way the only difference is the tool used to do the damage has been slightly altered, the mistake is the same and will have the same results in the long run. Humans are inherently driven to repeat history.

    I saw regression in progress, if you want to see it too shake a hive (foundationless) each spring let your queens breed with local mongrels the ones surviving year after year in the wild or raise your own. measure the cell sizes throughout the colony and watch its amazing and fun!!!! Remember changes in Nature don't come overnight ....if your lucky!!!!!!

    Listen to the bees, read them, they have a ton to teach and just have fun!!!!!!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Default Re: What happens if small cell foundation gets mixed with regular cell.

    The size difference, according to Baudoux is that the large cell bee is 157% the size of a small cell bee. This is in volume, not length. That is consistent with my observations though I have not attempted to measure it.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnatural...tm#baudoux1893
    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#combwidth

    When you increase the cell diameter from what Baudoux thought was natural (4.7mm) to what he thought was optimum (5.555mm) the bees also increase the depth from 20.20mm to 22.60mm thus the VOLUME of the cell increases by approximately 160% from 192 cubic mm to 301 cubic mm (157%).
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Hardin Cty, KY, USA
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: What happens if small cell foundation gets mixed with regular cell.

    Mike
    Regardless of the technical measurements which can still be summed up as Large and Small. The theory still remains the same. Bigger cells more room/time for mites to breed more offspring. Explains the preference for drone brood. Cell size directly affects the mite load. High mite loads kill a colony. Colonies can withstand mites below the threshold. At least that was the basis for the Lusby's rush to produce small cell foundation and it was working GREAT in AZ.( give some credit to hygienic/aggressive Africanized bees). This we all know to be true.

    Carry the small cell theory to the end and you will find foundationless colonies.

    What does it hurt to try something that requires no expense and is a manipulation that's rather easy. That answer is easy....hobby beeks cannot look at a hive and not do one of several things.

    1. open it, mess with it.
    2. stare at it....some may even get a lawn chair and a beer or two.
    3. see something that needs to be modified and run to the wood shop.

    I was more mesmerized by a hive than I was by the TV, says my wife!!!

    Work smarter not harder.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads