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  1. #21
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    Sep 2013
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    Redlands, CA USA
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    101

    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    >The mites prefer drones, and a new natural method of control is to introduce foundation sized for drones, and then remove and destroy it, therby lowering the colony mite population. Try it on purpose, you seem to have the perfect hive to experiment with. Good luck!

    This is a top bar hive, so I don't know how to induce drone formation. Might try a piece of plastic "drone foundation" wedged onto a top bar.

    >Let's know either way in due course jfb58, I'd be interested to see if they can throw off an infection that bad.

    Me too!! The people on this forum who have reported success in snatching the brass ring of treatment free bees often seem to have done so with hot climate, swarm prone colonies. I have been happy so far in the productivity without feeding or chemicals, and they don't seem too mean to me. The mite load was a sobering, wish I would have checked for mites before
    9 months, 12 colonies, TF (so far)

  2. #22
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,379

    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    >Three worker cells containing a foundress mite hardly indicates that they can successfully reproduce in them.

    Not really my point, but it was a conclusion of the study. My point is they prefer the drones by a very wide margin in cerana and that is why they don't have problems with Varroa.

    >You implied in an earlier post that culling drone cells would put selection pressure on those who reproduced in worker cells.

    How can it not?

    >The purpose of my initial response was to point out the silliness of such a 'hypothesis'.

    How much of an effect it is over what period of time, remains to be seen, but I think it's obvious that it would select for mites that perfer workers if you keep removing mites that prefer drones.

    If I had the time to do all those uncapped mite counts I would be curious what the proportions are in large cell compared to small cell. A stronger preference for drones is likely part of why small cell works.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #23
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Can you see commercial beekeepers going around their hives fortnightly and culling all the drone comb? Can you even see many hobbyists doing it? Since better than 99% of hives are commercial, and of the remaining less than 1% hobby hives just a tiny proportion would have serious methodical drone culling, I cannot believe drone culling is done to anything like sufficient extent to have an effect on Mite evolution. Not even a thousand years from now.
    There is no harm at all in this hobbyist doing it on one TBH, culling drones is not evil, and his actions will not bring about the destruction of world beekeeping.
    Just the time waste and difficulty of this procedure will ensure it will never be used to an extent big enough to outweigh other evolutionary pressures.

    re the Amitraz in honey issue, no you cannot (according to the label) have honey supers on when using it. It's academic now because he says he will not treat the hive, but if he were to, it does not have honey supers on it. If there was surplus honey he could remove it prior to treatment, but store it incase the bees need it back during the treatment period.
    The Apivar label says not to treat with supers on, that will save their butt should there ever be any legal challenge claiming someone was poisoned due to it's use. In practise, it was many years before Amitraz was ever detected in commercially harvested honey, due to it's short 1/2 life, this despite in reality hives do get treated with Amitraz with honey on, in it's legal, and illegal formulas. ( Formulae, for the spelling cops. ) I personally, would have no difficulty consuming honey harvested from a hive with Apivar in it, honey does not readily absorb Amitraz, but if any does get in, it will not last long. Would I supply such honey to someone else? No. Not that I think it would do any harm, but more just a breach of faith type thing, if I am ethical, eventually people will perceive me that way.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #24

    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    The mere suggestion that an individual beekeeper....or even a group of beekeepers could significantly alter the varroa mite/honey bee interaction, simply by culling drone brood is preposterous. The fact that anyone would attempt to defend this basic absurdity......astounds me.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Redlands, CA USA
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    101

    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Can you see commercial beekeepers going around their hives fortnightly and culling all the drone comb? Can you even see many hobbyists doing it? Since better than 99% of hives are commercial, and of the remaining less than 1% hobby hives just a tiny proportion would have serious methodical drone culling, I cannot believe drone culling is done to anything like sufficient extent to have an effect on Mite evolution. Not even a thousand years from now.
    There is no harm at all in this hobbyist doing it on one TBH, culling drones is not evil, and his actions will not bring about the destruction of world beekeeping.
    Just the time waste and difficulty of this procedure will ensure it will never be used to an extent big enough to outweigh other evolutionary pressures.
    In case you didn't notice, this is the Top Bar Hive Forum I also drain boils every day, not sure what your point is.
    9 months, 12 colonies, TF (so far)

  6. #26

    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I cannot believe drone culling is done to anything like sufficient extent to have an effect on Mite evolution. Not even a thousand years from now.
    And....even if you could get all the commercials and hobbyists (top bar included) on board....they'd have to cull 100%....and who'd cull the ferals?
    And once that was all finished....who'd there be to mate with the virgin queens?
    But....let's not forget....the original statement was being applied to a single hobby beekeeper. Preposterous. And now we're debating the varroa habits within A cerana colonies....in an effort to support it.
    Makin' my brain hurt.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  7. #27
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Jfb58 to answer your question re drone foundation, you don't need to use it. The bees naturally need a percentage of drone comb. If you cut out the drone comb and put those bars back in the hive, once the bees perceive they have less drone comb that they want in the hive they will build more.

    The exception is for very weak hives, which will build only worker cells if they think their very survival is at risk and they cannot waste resources on drone raising.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #28
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Quote Originally Posted by jfb58 View Post
    In case you didn't notice, this is the Top Bar Hive Forum I also drain boils every day, not sure what your point is.
    Just seen this, sorry you missed the point. The discussion over several posts previous to my comment you have quoted was re the effect of drone culling on mite evolution. There is nothing particularly precious about top bar beekeeping, varroa mite evolution is a beekeeping issue and is affected by beekeeping. Not just top bar hives. Get the point now? Some problems have to be approached holistically (big picture), whether we spend our day draining boils, or not. `

    I had made a sincere effort to give you useful info in this thread and in fact think I have been very helpful. However if you think otherwise I'll let it go.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 01-28-2014 at 01:58 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #29

    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    we spend our day draining boils
    Ewwwww.....but I've guess everyone's got to be doing something.
    Pretty neat how I took that quote out of context.....isn't it?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    LOL
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    >I cannot believe drone culling is done to anything like sufficient extent to have an effect on Mite evolution. Not even a thousand years from now.

    It's not evolution, it's selective breeding.

    500 years ago the only horses that would trot were pretty much war horses. All the rest had been bred to not trot. Trotting was not considered a good trait. As roads improved and carts were common, trotting was more useful. In one mans life time the population of horses in the world were selectively bred from almost all not trotting to almost all trotting. That is not evolution. It's selective breeding. Evolution is an entirely different matter.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Drone culling is done on (maybe) 0.01% of hives, probably less. Was the transformation of horses achieved by selective pressure on only 0.01% of horses?

    No?

    Then perhaps you will have to agree with my point. A little drone culling on an infinitesimally small number of hives bees will not affect evolution or outweigh other evolutionary or selective pressures.

    I'll even bet that while horses were being selected for trotting during the time frame you say, human nature being what it is, there would have been a few hold outs not happy with the modern trotting trend, and selecting against trotting. Probably more than 0.01% of horse owners. Yet you claim horses were transformed into trotting horses. The 0.01% was not enough to change the tide, so if horse breeding illustrates mite breeding as you imply, you have shown that a person with a TBH need not concern himself with the selective issues around culling some drone comb from his hive.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 01-28-2014 at 04:32 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #33
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    >Drone culling is done on (maybe) 0.01% of hives, probably less. Was the transformation of horses achieved by selective pressure on only 0.01% of them?

    If a hobbyist or commercial person is doing drone removal religiously I'd say they are putting selective pressure on 100% of them or at least near that. And mites have much shorter lives and can be bred to a particular trait in a much shorter time. Having that in my yard is not what I want. Will it affect you in NZ? Probably not unless you are doing the same. We all need to be breeding for mites that live with the bees if we want to change things. Not the other way around.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  14. #34

    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Was the transformation of horses achieved by selective pressure on only 0.01% of horses?
    OT...you see how easy it is to get drawn away from the real question?
    Any rational person following this knows that one beekeeper....or even a number of beekeepers..... doing drone cell culling isn't going to change the nature of varroa. And all of the attempts to make A cerana and horse analogies isn't going to erase the foolishness of the earlier post.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  15. #35
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    Jul 2013
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    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
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    417

    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Didn't studies say that 40 percent of varroa was on worker brood? Culling drones only deals with about half of your capped mites...
    www.apisrustica.com (French-only website) Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens / northern hygienic bees

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    If a hobbyist or commercial person is doing drone removal religiously.
    Operative word IF. Almost nobody is. And as per you horse breeding illustration, that tiny number did not change the tide.

    However I do understand where you are coming from but we also need to look beyond theory, and primarily look at what is actually happening. The guy with the top bar can cut his piece of drone brood, or not, I don't really care.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    >Culling drones only deals with about half of your capped mites...

    The half that prefer drones.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    The half that prefer drones.
    A citation to support that exists?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  19. #39
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    Dec 2008
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    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
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    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    The half that prefer drones.
    Drone brooding is for a relatively short part of the season, what happens to them when drone brooding ends.

  20. #40
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    Sep 2013
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    Redlands, CA USA
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    101

    Default Re: Drone comb loaded with mites

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post

    I had made a sincere effort to give you useful info in this thread and in fact think I have been very helpful. However if you think otherwise I'll let it go.
    Boy, you are touchy for someone who posts as much as you do. I don't think I mentioned evolution, I'm thinking of palliative surgery--the varroa infested hive as a disease ridden organism--cut or chemo? Are you thinking of your fans elsewhere: New York, Nebraska, England? Maybe you can change your title to Old F**t. My next suggestion is to candle combs to find areas of infestation. Got a horse analogy for that one?
    9 months, 12 colonies, TF (so far)

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