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  1. #161
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    144

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Well 100% survival would depend on a certain time period, I am sure that there are many beekeepers who have had a 100% survival over 1, 2,or 3 seasons but to have a 100% survival over a beekeepers lifetime would be another story, similar to some of the stories that abound on BS
    Johno

  2. #162
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,999

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I can think of several on Beesource with, thus far, 100% survival, the ones I think of are similar to Daniel, just been going a season or two, some of them treat, some don't. I see no reason whatsoever to doubt Daniels honesty.

    Also the thread has taken a somewhat ugly detour from the topic. The topic is not (the age old) treat vs non treat debate, which has already been done a thousand / thousands of time with no real winners, nor is the topic attack / defend Michael Bush. Michael has stepped up and said that was his position 10 years ago, 10 years on it's now different, so be it. Me, I would say I've changed my mind a few times over the last 10 years, just, I don't have a web site.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #163
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,867

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I've been changing with the wind the last few years it seems, trying to find a way to keep my bees alive without treating. Looks like that will continue in the immediate future sorry to say.
    Last edited by jmgi; 01-28-2014 at 01:09 PM. Reason: mistake

  4. #164
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gonzales, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    171

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I can think of several on Beesource with, thus far, 100% survival, the ones I think of are similar to Daniel, just been going a season or two, some of them treat, some don't. I see no reason whatsoever to doubt Daniels honesty.
    Oldtimer,
    I certainly wasn't doubting his honesty, I was merely seeking clarification on exactly what he meant by 100% survival. Some people play PGA rules when they golf, and some people play that if your ball is within 3 feet of the hole....Close enough, pick it up, it counts! No dishonesty on either side, just two different views of the same game.

    I thought it brought up an interesting question...exactly how do individuals define a loss hive? My guess is different Beeks view this differently. Losing a queen, re-queening, "borrowing" resources from another hive, etc. etc.

    A few Examples:
    You start the season with 10 hives, one gets overrun by SHB, but you split a strong hive...So you finish the year with 10....Did you have a loss, or are you even?

    You capture a swarm from your own yard and hive them...three days later, they abscond....Did you lose a hive, and therefore count it as a loss, or did you never really have it?

    You do a walk away split...One half survives, the other doesn't...Did you loss a hive, or just fail to gain one?

  5. #165
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,999

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Good points Moots.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #166
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    3,415

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    I've been changing with the wind the last few years it seems, trying to find a way to keep my bees alive without treating. Looks like that will continue in the immediate future sorry to say.
    I understand exactly how you feel. I made a significant effort over a few year period to replicate everything MB does with his colonies. Upper entrances, unlimited brood nest, natural and small cell, etc. I still pretty much mirror most of his practices, and will continue to do so in the future. But when the day came to pull the plug on OA and go treatment free, I lost almost 100% of my colonies to mites. After restocking and resuming OA in the following years the losses averaged only about 20%, including starvation, queenlessness, etc.

    I just don't have the courage or will to try it again and risk those kinds of losses. I think there must be another component in play that MB has active in his yards, but mine lack. It could be his queen's genetics, the environment, lack of pressure from non-resistant colonies in the area ... I don't know.
    To everything there is a season....

  7. #167
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,203

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moots View Post
    Oldtimer,
    I certainly wasn't doubting his honesty, I was merely seeking clarification on exactly what he meant by 100% survival. Some people play PGA rules when they golf, and some people play that if your ball is within 3 feet of the hole....Close enough, pick it up, it counts! No dishonesty on either side, just two different views of the same game.

    I thought it brought up an interesting question...exactly how do individuals define a loss hive? My guess is different Beeks view this differently. Losing a queen, re-queening, "borrowing" resources from another hive, etc. etc.

    A few Examples:
    You start the season with 10 hives, one gets overrun by SHB, but you split a strong hive...So you finish the year with 10....Did you have a loss, or are you even?

    You capture a swarm from your own yard and hive them...three days later, they abscond....Did you lose a hive, and therefore count it as a loss, or did you never really have it?

    You do a walk away split...One half survives, the other doesn't...Did you loss a hive, or just fail to gain one?
    The way I see it, "winterloss" is the number of dead colonies coming out of winter. Say I had 100 live colonies in October and 90 live colonies in April, then my winterloss was 10 colonies. What most people don't keep good track of and don't report are the number of colonies that go belly up during the rest of the year from going drone layer, or diseased or whatever.

    That is a number which we might aught to pay attention to too.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  8. #168

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    The way I see it, "winterloss" is the number of dead colonies coming out of winter.
    This is one of the reasons I generally avoid these discussions. I cull hard at season's end. My 'overwinter' losses are usually less than 5% but to report them as such would be dishonest. All year long I collect empty hives from shakeouts or other failures to clean and repaint. In spring, when I'm ready to refill and return them...I do a count....and use that to figure my year to year losses. As you see....we all do it differently....and so one person's numbers are pretty much meaningless without all the details. And who, in their right mind, wants to sift through that?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  9. #169
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,203

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Amen Dan, amen.

    I guess it would be easy enuf for me to say that I had zero loss too. All of my hives that are alive are alive. Knowing DanielY he has a way of justifying his 100% success statement. I just don't know what it is. Unless it is that all of his hives have always had bees in them uninterupted. Which doesn't mean that queens didn't die or get surceded or something.

    Only Daniel knows what he means. I don't know any beekeeper who hasn't lost a colony of bees, unless they just bought them.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  10. #170
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Still not a reason for not using OA.

  11. #171
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    144

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    what have I learned from 170 posts on this thread, some folks would rather I watch my colonies die from varoasis than treat with OA. Some beekeepers are so stupid that they will kill themselves treating their colonies. That it is better to have a lot of microbes on dead bees than less microbes on live bees. that according to post #63, Government closest to the people is better, Government over 4 million people must be closer than a Government over 350 million people. So after all that I shall continue to use OA as one of my mite treatments and as my IQ is not below 40 hopefully I will not kill myself using the OA treatment.
    Johno

  12. #172
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,214

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >That it is better to have a lot of microbes on dead bees than less microbes on live bees.

    But my bees aren't dead
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #173
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    144

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Well Mr Bush, as I do not use OA on your bees perhaps it was my bees I was referring to. which reminds me of the other thing that I learned, if I use FA in my hives the bee bread wont rise.
    Johno

  14. #174
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
    Posts
    335

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    if I use FA in my hives the bee bread wont rise.
    Johno
    Plenty other stuff being sprayed around to stop the bee bread rising Johno.

    January 27, 2014

    UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa. -- Four pesticides commonly used on crops to kill insects and fungi also kill honeybee larvae within their hives, according to Penn State and University of Florida researchers. The team also found that N-methyl-2-pyrrolidone (NMP) -- an inert, or inactive, chemical commonly used as a pesticide additive -- is highly toxic to honeybee larvae.


    According to Frazier, the team's previous research demonstrated that forager bees bring back to the hive an average of six different pesticides on the pollen they collect. Nurse bees use this pollen to make beebread, which they then feed to honeybee larvae.

    According to Chris Mullin, professor of entomology, Penn State, these pesticides may directly poison honeybee larvae or they may indirectly kill them by disrupting the beneficial fungi that are essential for nurse bees to process pollen into beebread.

    http://news.psu.edu/story/301619/201...ee-larvae-hive

  15. #175
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Pepperell, MA.
    Posts
    3,770

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I think there are a lot of losses that are not due to a single factor. Mark makes a good point when he talks about winter loss vs. losses during the warm seasons. For example, I lost three hives this fall due to a bear cub deciding to have some fun. A fourth was badly reduced in numbers and while it's still hanging on, it may not make it into the spring. Certainly, that colony is likely stressed by who knows what else.....mites, disease, etc. I know that after the bear hit it, the colony experienced significant robbing. This was a hive that I used OA on last year. If I lose it, and I would say the odds are good that I will, I can blame the loss on winter, bears, robbing and mites. I can likely find some blame among all those factors. I think we all experience variables that affect colony health to some extent or another. In my mind, the use of OA can be effective but I still worry that just because I can "see" the positive effects doesn't mean that there aren't negative factors associated with its use and, as we all seem to agree on, it isn't a magic potion for mites.
    "My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

  16. #176
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,157

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenseye View Post
    In my mind, the use of OA can be effective but I still worry that just because I can "see" the positive effects doesn't mean that there aren't negative factors associated with its use and, as we all seem to agree on, it isn't a magic potion for mites.
    Totally agree OA is no silver bullet, but perhaps a "brass one." If used in combination with other treatments, it's a powerful tool.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  17. #177
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    871

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    The OA vaporizers I have purchased and used both came with specific instructions on how to use the devices on beehives, and had very clear warnings about handling OA and breathing its vapors.
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 14 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  18. #178
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Laurel Hill, Fl
    Posts
    455

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    Totally agree OA is no silver bullet, but perhaps a "brass one." If used in combination with other treatments, it's a powerful tool.
    I like OAV on my hives so much, I bought a second one to make it more time efficient. I can treat the next hive while my first unit cools off a little. It takes me about 3 minutes per hive, I hope to cut that to less than 2 by using 2 units and overlapping the time, while one is cooking and cooling I'm starting the next. My drop counts were great and all my hives survived the winter.

    I keep a smoker going to track the wind...

  19. #179
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Hardin Cty, KY, USA
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    Whether or not you agree with the using OA in either a dribble or vaporized form for many of the reasons discussed here and in other forums, there is no doubt that it works. Potential users would do well to research the product and draw their own conclusions. It is another weapon on the war on mites that I'm sure if it was an approved mitecide here in the US as it is in the rest of the world, beekeepers would not hesitate to openly use it to save their hives.
    To answer the thread NO WAY would I use this product. No arguing the fact that it works, but then again cutting off my hand works to fix my hang nail too. No arguing it exists in food. In such small quantities and not in vapor form so its harmless. Then there is the fact ITS NOT LEGAL.

    Its wood bleach!!

    So I am not going to put anything in my hives that requires a nuclear, chemical, biological suit to apply. Anyone that sells honey to a novice and explains its natural because it occurs naturally in food is giving the consumer half the story. WE ALL know if you actually explained the ENTIRE process to a consumer they would never buy honey again.

    Colony Collapse had everyone so scared that we were going to loose honey bees forever so we rushed to anything that worked.

    I would not use OA or FA the requirement for PPE is enough. Why not use it? because there are better safer alternatives.

  20. #180
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    903

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Well, this IS the USA and you ARE entitled to your opinion. Even if much of the rest of the world does not agree with you.

    JMO

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

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