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  1. #141
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    6,015

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Oh OK I knew about the book, wondered if you were selling something else Michael.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #142
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,240

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    From Michael's website: What I do.

    I use the small cell/natural cell and Screened Bottom Boards (SBB) and I monitor the mites with a white board under the SBB. As long as the mites stay under control, and so far, since 2002 they have, that's all I do. If the mites were to start going up while the supers are on I would probably fog with FGMO or dust with powdered sugar. If they were still high after fall harvest, I would use Oxalic Acid vapor. So far I haven't needed them since the bees were regressed. Basically just small cell has been effective for me for both kinds of mites and adequate under normal conditions.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  3. #143
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    steeds, north carolina, USA
    Posts
    66

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Wow snl, you just don't know when to stop. I am starting to believe you would beat a dead horse.

  4. #144
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Well, snl should have just posted that up in the first place.

    Of course, something as cheap and easy as using OA seems like a simple solution to Varroa infestation, but it not only leads to a factory farm model of beekeeping, but there's also an unintended consequence on Honeybee stocks in the U.S. .

    We now have two main hybrid managed stocks: the western and the eastern U.S. commercial stocks.

    After having looked as some of the genetic analyses that has been done on them, and knowing how utterly dependent they are on treatments, we've inherited two problems.

    Honeybees have not only bottlenecked into two hybrid groups (they're not as diverse as some think), they're also stuck on the treatment treadmill.

    They're not that different than livestock found in large scale operations at this point.

    So, why not use OA (or other treatments)? Because you'll be stuck in a bottleneck while on a treadmill.

    We really do need to do a better job of developing resistant stocks without the bottlenecks.

    You can't do that by using OA.

  5. #145
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    3,429

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    We really do need to do a better job of developing resistant stocks without the bottlenecks.
    Sounds like a plan. Would it make sense to start breeding programs with those who are already maintaining vibrant treatment free bees, and then spread those genetics around to others?
    To everything there is a season....

  6. #146
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,240

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    From WLC:

    Well, snl should have just posted that up in the first place.
    I posted it when I found it on his website. Michael should have been more forthcoming in his answer.

    Of course, something as cheap and easy as using OA seems like a simple solution to Varroa infestation, but it not only leads to a factory farm model of beekeeping, but there's also an unintended consequence on Honeybee stocks in the U.S. .
    We now have two main hybrid managed stocks: the western and the eastern U.S. commercial stocks.

    After having looked as some of the genetic analyses that has been done on them, and knowing how utterly dependent they are on treatments, we've inherited two problems.

    Honeybees have not only bottlenecked into two hybrid groups (they're not as diverse as some think), they're also stuck on the treatment treadmill.

    They're not that different than livestock found in large scale operations at this point.

    So, why not use OA (or other treatments)? Because you'll be stuck in a bottleneck while on a treadmill.
    But if you don't ........most of us will have dead bees. The choice is ........yours.

    We really do need to do a better job of developing resistant stocks without the bottlenecks.
    Agreed.
    You can't do that by using OA
    Or with any other treatment I would think. But if those of use who are not fortunate enough to have bees that survive TF and wish to save what we have will treat with either OA or their preferred treatment. From my research, OAV seems for me the least harmful of treatments that work.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  7. #147
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,240

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waggle View Post
    Wow snl, you just don't know when to stop. I am starting to believe you would beat a dead horse.
    You can post that after reading what Michael Bush previously stated here in this thread and then what I found on his website? Really?

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I bought my 'chemical free' bees from pretty much the only source available to me.

    Currently, there are perhaps 700-500 breeder queens that are the source of the current commercially available stocks of queens. Yet, they're, for the most part, hopelessly hybridized, and they're also dependent on treatments for survival.

    What's worse is that the average queen lasts an average of six months.

    That's the current problem.

    Having seen how my resistant stock compares to my previous domestic/commercial bees, I foresee a problem.

    They're simply not ready for commercialization.

    Either you're going to have to put the best queen breeders in the country on the problem, or you're going to have to go the biotechnology route.

    I'm not sure that the 'dominance' of some of the undesirable characteristics that come with resistance can be separated out by breeding.

  9. #149
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    3,429

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    They're simply not ready for commercialization.
    So in the interim ... my choice is either treat to keep my colonies alive, or let most of my colonies die and then replace them every year with the same inferior stock.
    To everything there is a season....

  10. #150
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    So in the interim ... my choice is ether treat to keep my colonies alive, or let most of my colonies die and then replace them every year with the same inferior stock.
    Today, yes.

  11. #151
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
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    2,898

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    So in the interim ... my choice is either treat to keep my colonies alive, or let most of my colonies die and then replace them every year with the same inferior stock.
    It doesn't appear Mike Bush is doing either of these and still has healthy bees, so I guess there is another choice. Seems like lots of people just don't want to take the time and effort shifting gears to doing things the way he does them and see if it works, they would rather just throw more chemicals around without knowing, or maybe even caring to know what the repercussions might be down the road.

  12. #152
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,064

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    That time effort and expense is no small difference. it is in fact so great I as a beginner will not even consider it. I need increase for my effort and investment. and treatment free does not even begin to offer that. If there is any one single reason i will not take up TF that would be it. Make it work. then you will have my interest. I have not seen anything yet I consider working.

    Not to mention that so far treating them and everything else I have done has resulted in 100% survival. I like Michael can say I don't see any need to change what I am doing. As far as I can tell it is cheaper, easier and works better. I realize I have a ways to go though.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  13. #153
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,898

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Daniel Y, Seeing as it sounds you've never tried TF, what kind of TF success rate do you need to see going on around the country before it gets your interest? Do you think Dee Lusby, MB, and others who are successful at it are some kind of magicians? And nobody can duplicate what they are doing given some time and effort? But you are right, being TF is not cheaper, or easier, especially when you have to do a 180 from what you are currently doing. But as a beginner as you say you are, it seems the right time for experimenting with it.

  14. #154
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,142

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    From Michael's website: What I do.

    I use the small cell/natural cell and Screened Bottom Boards (SBB) and I monitor the mites with a white board under the SBB. As long as the mites stay under control, and so far, since 2002 they have, that's all I do. If the mites were to start going up while the supers are on I would probably fog with FGMO or dust with powdered sugar. If they were still high after fall harvest, I would use Oxalic Acid vapor. So far I haven't needed them since the bees were regressed. Basically just small cell has been effective for me for both kinds of mites and adequate under normal conditions.
    I stand corrected, I was wrong in MB's position.

    Basically snl, myself and MB are the same. We will do what we have to do, the only difference is MB feels he has to do less than I feel I have to do.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  15. #155
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,320

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >If they were still high after fall harvest, I would use Oxalic Acid vapor

    I wrote that more than a decade ago and the jury was still out on small cell then. I need to update the page. Oviously, I would not write that now. I will update it when I get home tonight.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #156
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,675

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I love how the content of Michael Bush's website is on topic, and the content of SNL's website somehow isn't. What is that you are selling?

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  17. #157
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,142

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Well I'm on a roll; just keep racking up the wrongs.
    Change a position after ten years? Why would you do that?
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  18. #158
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    915

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >If they were still high after fall harvest, I would use Oxalic Acid vapor

    I wrote that more than a decade ago and the jury was still out on small cell then. I need to update the page. Oviously, I would not write that now. I will update it when I get home tonight.
    Imagine that! Having a website about keeping bees that's been up on the web for over a decade! Imagine that it actually needs updating! WOW! Has his chief critic here even been keeping bees for a whole decade?!? And his website is--what?--5 minutes old?

    The pettiness of some people truly astounds me!



    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  19. #159
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,898

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    MB spoke on his site of a treatment he may have used and promoted 10 years ago when he was still figuring out if natural cell or small cell was a better answer, and now people want to hold him to that same statement today is very unfair, even though for the last 10 years he has done nothing but discourage the use of treatments for the overall health of the hive, and has encouraged natural and small cell as a more viable option. It seems pretty simple and straightforward to me.

  20. #160
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gonzales, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    171

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post

    Not to mention that so far treating them and everything else I have done has resulted in 100% survival...
    **Emphasis added

    WOW! I don't think I've ever seen any Beek claim 100% survival of their bees, regardless of what methods or treatments they may have used. How many hives, over what period of time?...How exactly do you define survival?

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